The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop 1949 Cab Repair

I recently purchased a 1949 3600 and there are some areas of the cab that definitely need repair (see photos attached).

I am aware of patch panels for the rear lower corners but not sure what I need for the floor near the firewall and front lower corners. The cab mounts appear to be okay but sometime in its previous life it appears the cab mount hardware (and maybe more) has been removed. It is not clear what is actually retaining the cab at this time other than it weight.

I was anticipating removing the cab to allow complete cleaning and painting of the frame but I don't have a rotisserie or other means to manipulate the cab so I am having second thoughts.

At this point I am developing my project plan and would appreciate any insight that members could provide.

There are patch panels available for everything you need to do.
Floor panels from the front of the seat riser up to the toe board are available right and left side. You may not need the complete panels, but there will be the material you need there.
Inner, outer, and the infamous inner-to-outer cowl panels are also available, either short height or full height. You'll be swearing at the inner-to-outer cowl panel as you try to fit it in place. Just cut it where needed and weld it back together.

Your cab seems to be solid enough that you may not need a rotisserie. Some guys have laid the cab on it's back on appropriate padding to work on the floor. Be sure that you put temporary bracing in place before cutting out too much rusty metal so the cab doesn't get distorted. There are checking dimensions in the Factory Assembly Manual that can help you keep it correct.

You'll know more once you get it cleaned up.

Be sure to ask if you have more questions. I've been thru that effort (and more) and pics are in my signature link.

Kevin,

Thanks for the information and pointing me to your great photo gallery, definitely a lot of time and effort to not only do what you did but to document it all with pictures.

Having done two off frame restorations (my '50 COE and '37) I would recommend removing the cab. You will discover some things that you will want to fix early enough in the process to make it easier. A totally stripped cab only weighs about 370 lbs, so you and 3 of your friends can easily lift it off; or use straps and an engine cherry picker. Get a decent wooden pallet and buy some cheap swivel caster wheels at a big box store and make yourself a cab dolly. The cab can also be rolled on its back with some padding to work on the underside. Follow Kevin's advice and you will be fine.
Kent

Thanks Kent
I am was envisioning leaving the doors installed to help secure the cab shape during the removal and handling process but I suspect they will be in the way for a lot of work so that may not be a good plan.

The best platform upon which to make the repairs I see on your cab would be your frame.
The first thing you need to do is re-establish the front and rear cab mounts and measure and set the gaps, as per The Manual, between the cab and the frame at all four corners. This will give you a stable platform to keep everything from moving around as you cut and replace each of your rusty panels one at a time.

Thanks Carl, that makes a lot of sense. I have not reviewed the rear cab mounts but it seems clear that the front mounts were removed at some point.

The good news is that the frame appears to be solid in all the visible areas so hopefully also solid under cab.

I'd agree with Carl except for a few things.
1. The rear cab mounts are flexible, so it would be possible to get things off.
2. I hate working on my back, especially welding overhead.
3. The frame will be in the way of some places you need to get at.

My preference (and what I've done) is to remove the cab. It wasn't assembled on the frame at the factory.

1) The rear mounts are pretty much stationary if the front mounts are tight. I never notice my cab rolling around when I climb in my daily driver. Those rear mounts are designed merely so that the cab does not get crushed when the frame flexes, such as when driven off road.
2 &3) I hate working on my back also. Once I make all of the rust repairs from inside of the cab, the cab becomes a very rigid unit, giving me the confidence that nothing will get torqued out of shape once I remove it from the frame and stand it on the firewall so that I can easily get to the underside of the floor and the cab corners.

Agree with Carl to leave on the frame. I also don't see "welding on your back" a problem in this case. Welding thick stiff with stringer and weave is not fun, but this kind of welding is stacked spots. So it's just Zap welding one at a time. The issues associated with upside down welding don't exist. Removing the cab seems just an option if you have the wherewithal.
Removing the cab is not so simple, lots of things to remove and it's real heavy. Plus it's nice a shady under there.

WIcruiser: Do your top side patching, then decide on how to do the under later. A whole lot can be done with out laying on your back or removal. After trying on your back or side, you will know if it's OK or not. Be sure to jack the truck up so you can sit in a chair for the initial top side welding/fitting/measuring. I have four of those old 50's office chairs as my creepers.

I took a quick look and the rear mounts have been disconnected from the cab (same as the front). The passenger side front mount area is pretty rough but the other three mount areas seem pretty solid.
I will reinstall all 4 mount points and make sure the cab floor is the prescribed 7/8" above the top of the frame rails before I cut out anything. I anticipate ordering the two piece floor from Classic Parts along with other patch panels I anticipate needing when I get closer to tackling the cab part of the project.
Thanks everyone for your insight and recommendations. This is going to be a long project so I am not sure when I will be getting to the actual work.

I ordered and received my cab related patch panels from Classic Parts (very fast shipping and no parts back ordered!).

I need to study the parts more but interested in member's experience regarding sequence of patch panel installation, primarily the inner cowl and floor areas. I don't want to cut out too much at once and loose the integrity of the cab but at first glance it appears that if I cut out both the floor and the inner cowl areas I will have better ability to install the inner cowl patch panel. Generally the inner cowl is only poor along the fender arch, the passenger side floor is poor along the firewall and cab mounting area, the driver's side floor is only poor along the firewall. The outer cowls are only poor near the bottom but may need to remove more of the original panel to access the back side of the inner cowl.

It will be a while before I actual start into the panel work as the building the truck is in is not heated and it is cold this time of year here in WI.

I have my parts sitting on the floor in a box was contemplating the same thing mine is solid with made up parts from years ago . The floor patch from what I read is a good fit ,the outer cowl I read the same, kick panel or inner cowl seems to need adjustment at the bottom we’re it meets the floor as well as the piece in between .Take a look at Kevin’s klhansen on here he has a bunch of pictures on here maybe in the project journal.

Here's a sketch I just made of a cross-section thru the cowl area. From memory, so may not be exact, but you can see how the panels are sandwiched together, especially at the floor/rocker/inner cowl/inner-to-outer cowl. You'll need to cut it apart and determine how best to reassemble. As I mentioned earlier, you'll have to do some serious massaging of the inner cowl panel to get it to fit correctly.
As far as the outer cowl, that is the one that's critical as far as making the doors fit with the correct gaps, so that one needs to be at least fit temporarily first. Also, cut only as much as you need to get to solid metal. There isn't a need to get the whole outer cowl off for access, as the inner-to-outer spot welds at the front of it, and the inner cowl can be plug welded to the inner-to-outer from inside the cab.

Great information, thanks.

Did you receive the full size inner cowls? The gray ones? If so, I have a priceless tip which I will offer to you free of charge.
Buy the lower half panels which are in black primer. Many suppliers carry them. These half panels are formed correctly at the bottom, whereas the full panels ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE.
All you will need to do is cut the bottom portion of the full panel off and weld the black half panel to it. Trust me when I tell you that this tip will save you days of ridiculous metal forming labor.
Also, you will likely find that the two floor panels will be about 3/4" too short to cover the width of the original floor opening.
This is not a big deal. All you will need to do is make a small piece to fill the gap where the two floor panels meet at the seat riser.
This gap is located at the center of the transmission hole in the floor so it will be a very small piece to make and weld in.

I did receive the full size inner cowls but they are painted black? I had looked at getting the half panels but was concerned that they were too short to resolve the upper end of the damaged area on the original panels. I could order the lower half panels as you suggest but wonder if the problems that you experienced were related to panels from a different supplier.

I have laid the floor panels over the existing and they seem to overlap rather than having a gap but the assessment is very preliminary.

I did reattach the rear cab mounts to the cab and installed the driver's side front mounting bolt to secure the cab in location. When the weather improves I plan to start work on the passenger side floor/inner cowl area as the mounting hole on that side is in poor condition. I plan to shim the cab floor to the frame as far forward as possible to provide support prior to removing material.

On a separate subject can anyone provide tips regarding running board bolt removal? I am not sure if they are original but the bolts have square nuts and the best fitting socket I have is a 13mm 12-point. The bolts start to rotate once I get the nut loosened and given how everything is tucked up inside the mounting frame and under the running board it seems impossible to access the bolt to prevent rotation. I wouldn't mind cutting the bolts if I can find a way to gain access to ensure that I am not cutting anything except the bolt.

Pictures:
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/repairing-damaged-cowl-patch-panel-1947-1955-chevy-trucks/

Click on, "see all 20 photos".

If those inner cowl panels include bends at the top end, they are from Dynacorn (see pic), and may fit more correctly than others, although I don't have experience with them. They just look more correct. Carl is likely talking about the ones that are about 3/4 of the full height (stop below the top of the vent opening) that come unpainted. They need work at the lower end, or splicing the short panels to them.

On your running board fastener issue, they're special bolts with an extra large head and a carriage bolt square just below that. If they're spinning in the hole, then you'll need to cut them off. Try tightening them instead of loosening to see if they will snap off. If that doesn't work, you can probably use a cutoff wheel on a grinder to grind the nut away, or carefully use a cutting torch to cut the nuts off. In any case, you'll likely need a new set of fasteners, and possibly repair the running board where the bolts go thru the support.

Buoymaker, thanks for the pictures and the information. In your pictures it shows the floor panels done before the outer cowl is worked on which makes sense but it also appears that you did not need to install inner cowl panels. From what I have learned the floor edge is sandwiched between the the inner cowl and the rocker so I suspect that I need to remove both the inner cowl (at least the flange area) as well as the floor to fit the new floor panel in place unless I trim off the flange on the floor panel and butt it up against the inner cowl. I am not sure about trimming off the flange because it adds a lot of stiffness to the panel. My body does not have a driver's side vent that I am aware of but does have a passenger vent (air intake I believe for the heater I do not have).

Klhansen, my passenger side panel stops short of the top of the top of the vent opening and the driver's side is similar height but they are painted black. My panels were from Classic Parts part numbers 44-111 and 44-114. Also thanks for the insight regarding the running board fasteners, not sure why I didn't think about just tightening to break them. As long as I can get decent socket engagement that should work. Getting a cutoff wheel up inside the support channel to cut them seems like it would be a challenge but I do have a Dremel with cut off wheels that may fit if I need to cut some. I am sure I will need new fasteners regardless of how I get the old ones removed. Unfortunately it is cold and predicted to stay that way for at least the next week so and therefore activity is limited to working on patching/repairing fenders, etc. that I can easily carry to the other (heated) shop.

Here are pages from the 47-55 Factory Assembly Manual. Hope this helps a little.
I scanned them in using normal resolution. I can go higher for better detail if needed.

It may be possible to use a nut splitter to break off the nuts saving the original carriage bolts. Not the new style but the old style. You can buy a vintage “Nutsplitter” by H.K. Porter on eBay which is what I have. I have used it numerous times on my truck. The cutting edges on the tool can be rotated so the tool can be inserted between the channel. I looked at my truck and the tool and it looks like it will work.

My info about the poorly formed full inner cowl panel may well be dated. Your black panels may well be correct. It would make my day if the supplier finally corrected this issue! Please let us know how they fit. You will know right away.

Thanks for the additional information. When it warms up and I can get to back to work on the cab and running boards I will provide updates.

That's an awesome tool.
I saw a few of them just now on eBay, and it also highlighted H.K. Porter bolt cutters, which might be able to be used as a nut splitter, assuming you have enough room to fit them into the space and for the handles.
I used to be able to cut nuts off bolts with a cutting torch and leave the bolts usable. It's been years since I've tried that, so I might be a bit "rusty".

I was able to remove the running boards. The bolts I had not loosened I broke using the tighten rather than loosen method but the ones I had already loosened I could not get the head to engage to tighten so I cut them with a dremel cut-off wheel. In the process I discovered that the rear driver's side support bracket was broken between the top and bottom rivets so I will need to weld that as part of my frame restoration. While it will be a while before I need them I should begin my search for the special running board attachment bolts unless there is a better alternative?

Glad you were able to get those bolts out.

No need to search real hard for replacement running board bolts - Jim Carter sells them, along with most other vendors. Here's a link.

Thanks for the link, I can't recall if I already had it book marked (I have several of the vendors book marked).

I assumed that they would be readily available and that I would probably be replacing them just in principle given their age.

Looking at my cab floor it appears that there was what I assume was a seat riser removed (front and both sides, but not back) at some time, see pictures attached.

I am not anticipating installing an original bench seat so I don't think it will be too much of a problem but I am guess that at least across the front the riser provided stiffness to the floor panel, regardless of what seats I eventually install should I be planning to fabricate a reinforcement as part of my cab repairs?

That seat riser definitely provides some stiffness to the floor and helps keep it from sagging in the middle. My suggestion would be to install a channel below the floor where the front of the seat riser was. And possibly something in the location of the rear partition (that's partially gone in your truck). I'd suggest something called a hat channel (~|_|~ ) spot welded along each flange to the floor. Something about 3/4" deep could be installed extending between the frame rails. IIRC, the floor is supposed to be 3/4" above the frame, so you wouldn't want it close enough to hit the frame rails. You could also use that as reinforcement for your seat mounting.

Here is a picture of the seat frame on top of the seat riser that is welded to the floor my seat is original but a lot of seats from the junk yard will also fit in the framing .I used seat belts from a late 80,s early 90,s caprice back seat belts , bolted to the framework .

Thanks for the quick feedback. Another thing to add to my cab repair list.

I am curious how others have braced their cabs to minimize problems when cutting out floor, inner/outer cowl sections for repair. Ideally whatever is installed now with the cab mounted to the frame could stay in place when the cab is removed. The good news is that my repairs do not appear to be as extensive as some I have seen here but I don't want to assume everything will be okay and be surprised later.

MNSmith, thanks for the pictures, I am anticipating doing something similar.

I have been tracking other's projects and see what has been described as the fit problem of the inner cowl patch panels. If I understand correctly the problem is that the bottom of the "full" inner cowl panels is that they do not match up correctly with the offset in the floor where it bends up to form the bottom of the firewall. There was a recommendation to purchase the lower inner cowl patch panels as they are formed correctly (or at least a lot closer) so I am considering that approach. Any additional insight would be appreciated.

Can you take some pictures of the bottom of your new replacement panel from 3 angles and post them?
I should be able to tell you if they are bent correctly like the half panels are.

Here's a couple of pics of the shorty inner panels and the larger ones (unpainted) that Jim Carter sells. A full panel sold by Dynacorn looks like it's closer like the shorty panel pictured (just from looking at pictures from a vendor.) I used the Jim Carter panels and beat them into submission because I didn't want another weld joint. I had rust higher than the shorty inner panels would take care of. The last pic is of the short inner-to-outer cowl panel and the short inner panel that matches up fairly well.
These are matched up with the half floor/toeboard panels that I got from Classic Industries.

I attempted to take pictures that show the right lower panel, the left appears very similar. My perception is that the radius for the large shape at the bottom of the side is supposed to increase as you move from rear to front of the panel to compensate for the taper in the floor but these panels the radius appears to be constant.

Those also appear to be missing the flare at the front end that the short panels that I pictured have.
The radius at the front does need to be larger to match up better with the inner-to-outer cowl piece. The inner panels I used do increase in radius, but don't have the flare, which I needed to hammer into them.