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the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79530 Tue Jul 03 2007 06:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,766
D
'Bolter
Any on have any experience with the YF carb as a replacement for the Rochester "B" on a 216???
I'm on my fifth "B" and they are all warped and leak at the seam of the air horn and bowl. Two I have heat treated on a fixture to flatten them out after 50+ years of Zinc "creep" and one I actually machined the surfaces in the Bridgeport mill, they were flat to within .0005" until you tighten up the four screws. I don't mean WRENCH down the screws, Just tighten them a moderate amount and you can see the outer edges just curl up. So if I'm ever gonna get to pull her out of the garage this summer it looks like I'm gonna have to throw in the towel and pull the original style carb off and replace it with something that is half way reliable.
Jon, aka: Carbking, has suggested a W-1 as a replacement, and someone else mentioned a YF2100. I'm not familiar with either one so I can't make a comparison and I haven't been able to find any manuals of either one. I have a manual for the "B", they are readily available, however they only cover the early models and nothing is mentioned about the later "B" models. There were quite a few modifications to it but if it was documented it must be hidden away in somebodyís dusty files.
Anyway, I'm open to any and all sort of information.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79531 Tue Jul 03 2007 06:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 878
G
Shop Shark
I bought an NOS Stromberg carb for my 216 at a Swap Meet. The applications listed on the box covered my truck ('52 3600)so I bought it...it was cheap.
I basically used it to help resurrect my engine after a long sleep rather than rebuild the model B. It ran very well, though I didn't log too many road miles with it before I dismantled the whole truck. This was over 10 yrs ago.
I haven't heard much talk of Strombergs on this forum, so I'm not sure what their reputation is.

Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79532 Tue Jul 03 2007 07:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,347
C
Carburetion specialist
Denny:

Carter did not start printing "model" manuals until approximately 1953. The last W-1 was 1950, and Carter only printed model manuals on current product.

The W-1 is covered in detail in:

1946-1948 Chevrolet service manual
pre-1950 Chilton or Motors manuals
Carter Master parts and service manuals

Steve:

The Stromberg is an excellent carburetor. Generic information may be found in:

late 1940's Dodge shop manual
pre-1950's Chilton and/or Motors manuals
Stromberg Master parts and service manual

Jon.


Good carburetion is fuelish hot air
The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one you attempt to modify
If you truly believe "one size fits all" try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!
[image]http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Avatar.jpg[/image]
Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79533 Tue Jul 03 2007 07:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 276
D
Shop Shark
Denny, I put a YF3211 on my 235 & it worked good. When I changed the motor to a 292 I transferred that same carb. over to it. Still working great there.
Thanks to Jon I learned that the jets are the same in YF's as AFB's so in my case I already had a big variety, but if you don't, no problem, they're still readily available.
The 3211 had a clamp ring type top, good for my 235, when I went to the 292 it had a stud type air filter can so I found a YF with that type top & just switched that part.
So, you can mix parts on them & get one set up just like you want it & with jets avail., they're easy to tune for your motor.
Doug

Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79534 Tue Jul 03 2007 10:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,736
Shop Shark
"Topic: the Rochester "B" still has the drip"

..I seem to remember reporting to the field hospital with a similar condition.. eek


1953 Chevy 5-window 3100
In the Stovebolt Gallery
More pix on Picturetrail

Dave
Engine & Driveline Moderator

If you can't make seventy by an easy road, don't go. ~~ Mark Twain
Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79535 Wed Jul 04 2007 01:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,766
D
'Bolter
You were the guy I was thinking of when I posted the heading Dave!

Now see Doug, thatís what Iím looking for. I donít have any idea what a YF3211 looks like or what the mounting hole centers are or which side the linkage is on or where the inlet is.

Jon, I know it's a business with ya but I like to feed my brain and tinker with my own stuff. Keeps the Alzheimerís in remission. I hope ya can understand why I didn't take ya up on all those "B" cores, I haven't found a good one yet and I didnít want to get stuck with a bunch more unless I can figure out a way to keep them from leaking. Since you say that you wonít service them either Iím assuming that you havenít figured out a way either. The heat treating does relax the casting and flatten it out somewhat, however It also distorts some of the other features. Such as the venturi is very slightly out of round and the choke butterfly is a little stiff. The power piston well is distorted also after heat treating, just enough that you have to hone it a few tenths to get the piston to slide freely against the compression spring.
Iíve made up cad drawings of some of the brass parts in the ďBĒ carbs. They can all be made up on a small engine lathe. So far Iíve made up power pistons, idle adjustment needles, Iíve got the drawings made up for the jets but havenít made any yet. I picked up a box of SS dowels for the floats and now have boxes of all the Fillister head screws that are always rounded out from using the wrong screw drivers. Iíve made up a double ended form that fits inside the two float halves after you unsolder them. With this I can straighten out any dents that may be in the floats, also I can spin soft brass disks over them to make new float halves if I need to.
Now all I have to do is find the secret to keeping the two halves sealed.
Are there any problems with the W-1 carbs? If it was a good carb then why did GM switch to the Rochester ďBĒ in í50 and use it on all the inliners for a decade?

So it looks like Iím stuck without carburetion for July also. Are all these ADís I see in the pictures with their hoods popped up and a cute little Rochester ďBĒ sitting proudly on the intake manifold just trailer queens?
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79536 Wed Jul 04 2007 05:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 934
L
'Bolter
Denny, from the content of your posts, I know you approach such things in a detailed engineering sort of way, so this comment should be taken only as an anecdote. I do not claim any special knowledge but after suffering the "drip" in my '51 3100 (216) for some time with more than one Rochester B, I came across a Carter YF 787SA carburator at the ATHS show in Colorado Springs. After reading many posts, especially Carbkings, I decided to take the plunge. This carb was in the box, NOS. I figured it would have to be rebuilt but the seller insisted that all I had to do was put a few drops of Marvel Mystery Oil to soften up the leather accelerator plunger (why is it that every one uses Marvel Mystery Oil for odd things... I was told to use it as a substitute for Bendix cylinder oil for the Hydrovac on my Diamond T). Anyway, I followed his directions, bolted it on (it is a direct swap with no modifications of lines or cables). The truck fired right up, has never run better and doesn't leak a drop. My wife always complained that that whenever I drove that truck I always smelled like gasoline, but no more!! It has been only 3 weeks, but I am a convert.


1937 Chevy 1/2 ton
1942 Chevy 1/2 ton
1947 Diamond T Model 509
1951 Chevy 1/2 ton
1950 Chevy COE Model 5700 ~ "Barney" ~ And more pix
Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79537 Wed Jul 04 2007 01:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,347
C
Carburetion specialist
Denny - why did GM switch from Carter to Rochester??? - GM owned Rochester!

I am unaware of any serious problems with the 1941~1948 Carter W-1's. The early ones, beginning in 1932, had some issues; but Carter continually worked on the issues. By 1941 they had a great carburetor.

The only reason I do not include the 1949 (arguably the best of the W-1's) is that most parts of the 1949 are unique (read expensive) including the accelerator pump. The 1941~1948 are both readily available, and parts are also readily available.

As to the distortion on the B's: when we were still doing these, we had no problems other than the castings were again leaking within 3~5 years. I just can't recommend something that needs major work every 3~5 years. We did find the distortion you suggested if we tried to hurry the process. Once we figured this out, we started taking out a maximum of 0.003 inch per heating. It sometimes took a week to get the castings true. Too much work for the results!!!

Jon.


Good carburetion is fuelish hot air
The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one you attempt to modify
If you truly believe "one size fits all" try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!
[image]http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Avatar.jpg[/image]
Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79538 Wed Jul 04 2007 03:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,766
D
'Bolter
Thanks Doc, Iíll put that in my note book and keep my eyes open at the swap meets. Glad to have a few more options and the first hand report. Iíve been looking for carburetor books that cover Carter carbs but havenít had any luck. Jon says the ďCarter Master Parts and Service ManualsĒ are what I need but he forgot to say where you can find them. Iíve been keeping my eyes open for carb manuals at the swap meets but there taint much out there anymore. Guys are snapping them up and hoarding them, and then they die and the in-laws pitch them out with all the old Playboys when they ransack the property. Much better do send them or at least a copy, to Keith Hardy and let him preserve the material in his archives.
Iíve been downloading all the Rochester manuals for my reference library over at Keith Hardyís site, The Old Card Manuals Project, www.tocmp.com and there is a wealth of information available on RP. The only problem is it doesnít cover warpage of the Zinc castings after 50+ years!!!!

Of course Jon, that dawned on me last night while downloading all those bulletins. I kept seeing the GMĖ RP logos popping up.
Distortion; ďTo much work for the resultsĒ, as is true of the machining that I tried. I think machining would work, for a little while but you really need to leave the raised lip in the center of the web and the only way I can think or doing that is with a CNC program. To much work for the results!!!
I feel pretty sure that what is happening is that as the gasket gets soaked and shows a little weeping people have a tendency to tighten down the four screws a little more then a little more until the castings are again warped. This added to the ďZinc creepĒ problem leads to a carb that is leaking continually. At this point Charlie feels that all he has to do is put a Rebuild kit in it and that will solve his problems.
Iíve measured two of the early airhorns after they were heat treated and also the one I machined. The cross section is so weak on these that after assembly even the moderate amount of torque needed on the screws distorts the gasket surface. Itís not as bad on the later ones with the thicker cross-section but warpage is still a problem.
I havenít heard your opinion on the later YFís that have been suggested, do you have one? What engines were these originally used on, Iíd be willing to bet they were a larger displacement than the 216.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Re: the Rochester "B" still has the drip
#79539 Wed Jul 04 2007 05:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,347
C
Carburetion specialist
Denny - for years I have been recommending the use of Carter YF carburetors, provided the PROPER YF was used. I am no longer doing this for all applications, as the YF uses a neopreme diaphragm style accelerator pump; and neopreme does NOT like deathanol.

So my recommendation NOW is: if you live in a area where you are not "blessed" with deathanol, the YF is still an excellent choice. If you must use deathanol and use the YF, then start the vehicle daily or close to daily, so the fuel does not have time to evaporate from the bowl. Once the neopreme has been exposed to deathanol, and is allowed to dry, it tends to harden; and then will crack when flexed.

Except as in the previous paragraph, we are now recommending the Carter W-1 for all 216 applications, and multi-carb applications on the 235 and 261. The W-1 has a leather pump, which is impervious to deathanol.

For a single 235 application, we are suggesting (except as in the paragraph on the YF), the more expensive Zenith and Stromberg carburetors. The older Zenith carbs have a metal pump, and the Strombergs have a leather pump, both of which are impervious to deathanol.

The Carter WA-1 series is also an excellent series, and were used on engines as large as the 235; but still have the S.A.E. size 2 flange, thus requiring an adapter if used on a 235 intake.

Various YF carburetors were used on engines from 134 CID fours to 300 CID sixes.

Every carbureted car and truck I now own, with the exception of a 2.3 factory turbo car that has a Holley, has been converted to a Carter. I have the cylinder head, manifold, and Carter 4 barrel for the 2.3 turbo, but need a couple of cases of new old stock 48 hour days in order to install it.

Jon.


Good carburetion is fuelish hot air
The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one you attempt to modify
If you truly believe "one size fits all" try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!
[image]http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Avatar.jpg[/image]
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