Stovebolt.com

Steel Building

Posted By: TUTS 59

Steel Building - Tue Oct 15 2019 04:25 PM

So my Better Half has given me the green light on building a shop. I finished the slab a few years back and have had a whole list of set backs on the shop. I was pricing the materials to stick build a 28' X 40' shop, seems like a steel building might be a better option. I have worked out of a prefab building before, it always seemed to have issues with condensation and moisture, i beileve a lot of that might have been cured by better ventilation. Being in So. Georgia humidty is always an issue. I don't think I require anything with a great "R" value as it doesent get that cold here very often. Just looking for sound opinions before I spend this much on something I'll use everyday. headscratch
Posted By: Justhorsenround

Re: Steel Building - Tue Oct 15 2019 04:35 PM

Roof vents might help.
Posted By: Gord&Fran

Re: Steel Building - Tue Oct 15 2019 05:12 PM

Local building codes should specify amount of ventilation required. Ask the building inspector - you pay their salary - they are there to serve the public.
Posted By: J Lucas

Re: Steel Building - Tue Oct 15 2019 05:57 PM

Here is what I did. I designed my own building (40 by 42') and used 2 steel trusses from this company. https://www.facebook.com/PERKABUILDINGS I also purchased 1/4" thick foil backed foam from the same company to install under the metal siding. I have no condensation problems at all. What really surprised me was how well that thin (1/4" thick) insulation keeps it cool from the sun rays in the summer. Yes, when it's hot it's hot, but nowhere near like a typical metal building.

One picture in my Flicker photos shows the building as we framed it.

Good luck

John
Posted By: klhansen

Re: Steel Building - Tue Oct 15 2019 06:02 PM

Building code ventilation depends on the building use. For a shop where you're going to work on carbs, etc, where gasoline fumes might occur, higher ventilation rates are required. For condensation, it's a matter of keeping the inside surface temperature above dew point temperature when it's colder outside than inside.
I know that doesn't make much sense, but I can check the code books later in the day and give you a recommendation.
Going from memory, typically, 1/2 air change per hour would take care of it. If building volume is 13440 CF (that assumes a 12' ceiling height for your footprint), a fan capable of 120 CFM (a bit bigger than a bathroom fart fan) would get that air change rate. Turbine roof vents like Martin suggested would do the trick as well. You also have to have somewhere to let air in (try sucking air out of a bottle).
Posted By: klhansen

Re: Steel Building - Tue Oct 15 2019 09:46 PM

2012 International Mechanical Code (your area may use a different code, but they're usually similar) requires 3/4 CFM per square foot of floor area which works out to 840 CFM for your footprint. That's still not a huge fan. A 12" propeller fan with 1/4 hp motor will put out that much air. You can probably buy one for less than $200.
Posted By: J Lucas

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 16 2019 12:35 AM

That makes sense as my building has continuous soffit vents both front and back following the gables and additional vents (3 per side) in the eaves.

John
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 11:16 AM

Just looking for some Pros and Cons with a steel building verses a stick built. I had planned on building the shop myself, doing 2 courses of block as the sill to give me a little more height. The steel buildings are available in 12 thru 14 feet, this is would help if I were to add a lift later. The key point is that I would like a shop without any center posts, a 30ft stick built truss is pushing things a bit I think. Any thoughts?
Posted By: Gooberdog

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 12:58 PM

I built my 40x100 barn with 40' trusses with 2' overhangs on 8 ' centers. Truss companies know how to make long trusses.
Chuck
Posted By: tom moore

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 01:46 PM

I stick built my small shop - with clear span prefab trusses. Its 26 wide.

Truss company can build any width of truss you need. Consider partial ceiling area with scissor trusses for more headroom and partial ceiling area with attic trusses for storage. That way you do not need to elevate the building - scissor trusses can provide higher ceiling heights.

Could have gone wider, but nosy neighbor up the road - and having nothing to do with adjacent landowner was watching the setback, that in time became a non-issue as I acquired more land along that property line from the owner. We had a handshake agreement when I built the building that it was ok to move 5 feet further into the setback. But nosy neighbor threatened to tell the Town.

26 is not wide enough. 28 is better
Posted By: Mike B

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 03:08 PM

My main trusses are 44' (24" oc) with 12" over hangs...I have a 16' ceiling so I could put a loft in the back corner. The main building is block and the 26' wide annex is stick built with an 11'-6" ceiling. It's 70' wide across the front.

Trust me when I say build it bigger then what you think you need, there is never enough room!

Mike B smile

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Posted By: Green_98

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 06:49 PM

After 10 years in the pre-engineered metal building world as a project manager, quality manager, and lead estimator, I can say with confidence that insulation is one of the most difficult aspect of the project to deal with.

Condensation problems are always related to an incorrect insulation system being installed (or no insulation at all). The best thing to do is to get with an insulation supplier (Bay, Therm-All, Dominion), tell them what type of structure you are building and the zip code where it is being built, and they can give you a spreadsheet that shows the exact type and thickness of roof and wall insulation that is needed on your building. Tell them you want a building with no condensation issues. What you DONT want to do is go to Lowes and simply buy 6" of the cheap yellow stuff and think that will solve your insulation problems. It won't.

Also, if the insulation is un-faced (meaning there is no external vapor barrier), then you will have condensation issues. (Many people think they have roof leaks, when in fact, they ordered un-faced roof insulation and the condensation that drips down inside the building is often thought to be a roof leak. This is how I used to get the phone call "It hasn't rained in a month, yet my roof is leaking!!"). So, be sure your insulation order is for faced-insulation.

As far as interior ventilation, an independent engineer of record (foundation engineer) or perhaps even the city code official can give you guidance on how to properly ventilate the building. By using a combination of roof or wall mounted vents, 48" diameter cased-opening wall mounted fans, and even roof mounted ridge vents (single or multiple/continuous) with hand-chain operators can help you control the pressure inside the building.
Posted By: sstock

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 07:07 PM

Best thread that has been on here in awhile. Why we dont talk more about the perfect shop/garage is beyond me. I know it is the stovebolt but still need a decent building to build/maintain the stovebolt in.
May I offer a good website to research this interest in: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

Get ready for spending some fun quality time in there, there are experts in every realm there, be it construction,materials, electrical, insulating state/and local regulations, soils and dirt work.

Steve
Posted By: Green_98

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 07:57 PM

Metal buildings are very tricky and you can get into costly problems if they are not ordered properly. Having a contractor that has a proven track record of metal building knowledge and erection is a MUST. Not every Joe-blow with a contractor licence knows metal buildings.

I will offer my assistance to anyone that has questions about how to lay out, design, order, and construct.
Posted By: Phak1

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 17 2019 10:47 PM

Green_98 is spot on as to insulation and condensation. I had a garage built a few years back and due to the slope I needed to dig the back side into the ground. The walls are concrete, sealed with a masonry sealer, 9’ high and the back is dug 8’ in the ground. so the the back and half of the side walls are always colder in the spring thru fall. On humid days the wall sweats so much you would swear that wall is leaking. I have done the plastic sheet taped to the wall test and proved that the water was from condensation and not a leak coming thru the wall. The sweating gets worse when I open the doors. After doing research, the only way to stop the condensation is to equalize the wall temperature to the ambient temperature. Insulation would solve this. It’s on my list of things to do! I am also installing a dehumidifier to dry thing out when the garage is closed up.

Mike_B is also right when he said “build it bigger then what you think you need, there is never enough room!”

Mine is only 24‘ wide and due to the constraint‘s of my property, it was as big as I could squeeze in. Don’t get me wrong, I am thrilled that I have a place where I can store and work on my ‘52 Chevy 3100, but I am busting at the seams trying to find places to store all of the equipment required to work on these trucks. In this case, ”Size Does Matter”.
Posted By: Mike B

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 18 2019 02:42 AM

All of the condensation issues with metal buildings is what made me build with block and stick. My ceiling in the main shop is steel with 14" of blown fiberglass in the attic and I never have condensation.

Mike B smile
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 18 2019 12:23 PM

I am really wondering if it would just be better to stick build this shop. My slab is 28' x 40', I didn't have any real constaints on size it just would look better attached to the house. My original thought was to have the shop area 28' x 27' with 2 10' x 10' roll up doors and a 28' x 14' breeze way. What I have is a Manufactured Home, 32' x 86' on 3.5 acres. I the slab is butted up to one end with a 36' x 20' deck across the rear of the house. The steps for the deck land on the slab at the rear corner, thats where the breeze way comes in. I had thought of using a steel I beam to run the length of the building for the shop, that would allow me to have no center post and possibly a trolly and chain fall hoist. Currently I'm working out of a 12' x 24' protable building, as you say it's bursting at the seems. Like many of you I have way to many projects and just no time.
Posted By: Mike B

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 18 2019 06:31 PM

Truss build the roof and get a rolling gantry crane, it's way more versatile than a fixed beam. I got one that's 10x10 so I can back my trailer and truck under it for loading/unloading and it straddles a parked vehicle when not in use. It also goes under my 12' doors so I can use it outside as well.

Check out Lugnut's shop...I believe his shop is 24x24 so it will give you an idea of what you can do with your 27x28 space. Search the "Tool Box" section for his shop build.

Mike B smile
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Tue Oct 22 2019 01:14 PM

I helped a friend place his trusses yesterday for a barn he is building. His walls are going to be 12ft, I think I like that height as it has room for a lift. I wasn't happy with the construction of the trusses though, I'm just not sure about using 2" x 4" and not 2" x 6". I know it's acepted throughout the construction industry as standard, just didn't seem sturdy enough for my liking. headscratch
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 23 2019 05:25 PM

Just saw this thread. My 25 X 26 shop is metal. I’m in central SC with plenty of moisture but no condensation issues have developed.
Rather than drone on about my shop, I’ll let you ask the questions. I will say that I’m 100% happy with my all metal shop. Installation took 1 full day by a 3 man hard working crew. I hired a company to spray closed cell foam insulation on the ceiling. I hung the plywood interior walls myself. Then I hung the electrical conduit too.
Here are a few links to view. Construction video time lapse
Another video Lift installation
Foam insulation video Insulation video
Posted By: Apache1

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 23 2019 08:49 PM

If you don't mind Lugnutz what did that entire package set you back?
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 23 2019 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Apache1
If you don't mind Lugnutz what did that entire package set you back?

You are taxing my brain a little making me remember.
The building had all the upgrades. Thicker square tube, better sheet metal, vertical roofing with purlins. 10’ X 10’ roll up doors. I priced about 4 different companies and they were all about the same price plus or minus $10. It was crazy how close they all were on price.
Anyway, the building including labor to construct it and delivery.
Concrete slab needed footers to me code in my county.
So concrete slab was maybe $6000 which included large stump removal.
Building was around $8000.
I added a lean-to later and then another slab of concrete to the left later still.
All together I think I have $30-32K in it.
Here’s a link to the shop build story. Shop Build Story

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Posted By: sstock

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 23 2019 10:39 PM

Lug,
You have a lot of shop for that. Ground prep and concrete can surprise you on how much it costs up here in the pacific northwest. I'm still planning my next one.
After cab off restoring my 53 in a 20 by 24, I think I know the size of the next one. You can get some good lessons by having too small of a shop. I was constantly taking parts back and forth from my other garage for storage. If you are going to do a cab off truck restoration listen up, you need a lot of room or you will be fighting space problems throughout the build. Need a bay for each lift, my next one will have a 2 post as well as my 4 post. A space for a clean work bench and one for rough dirty work. I found another assembly table accessible from all four sides is real handy for doing large jobs like upholstering seats and rebuilding doors and such. And space you can roll your frame into to get it away from the bodywork you are doing. My ideal garage would not have anything along the side walls, a storage room for the compressor and boxes of parts ,engine stands and so forth is handy too. Probably minimum of about 1200 square feet. Well I can dream.

Steve
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 23 2019 11:35 PM

Regulations had me limited to 600 SF. I decided on 2 bays because I was only planning to keep one truck. Now I have 3. I have room to work but not the proper amount to attempt a frame off resto unless I park my other trucks outside.
Posted By: Apache1

Re: Steel Building - Wed Oct 23 2019 11:46 PM

Nice, very nice...thanks for sharing!
Posted By: sstock

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Lugnutz
Regulations had me limited to 600 SF. I decided on 2 bays because I was only planning to keep one truck. Now I have 3. I have room to work but not the proper amount to attempt a frame off resto unless I park my other trucks outside.

I would of been well appreciative of 600square feet, mine 480square feet, not so good.
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 01:22 AM

I had the slab poured a couple of years ago, 28' x 40'. The plan was to have 2 bays 28' x 28' and a 14' breeze way. After reading some of the post here I might rethink the breeze way and close it in for work space.
Posted By: Mike B

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 02:17 AM

While 28x28 is a nice size two bay garage, 28x40 is WAY better! You can get 6 of our old pickups in that space if you lay the doors out right...I vote for one BIG door at least 10' tall and 18' wide...20' would be better.

Mike B smile
Posted By: Bill Marlow

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 11:19 AM

I would have to agree with Mike. Make the building fit the slab. you could always add a lean too later. They never seem big enough.....My shop had plenty of room but somehow I ended up with three trucks.....and my wife's "prized VW so now it is a chess game if I want to pull my dd in for an oil change. Somethings got to go and I have a feeling it ain't the vdub……
Posted By: Apache1

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 01:26 PM

Question....are you able to walk under your trucks while on the lift w/o ducking? Appears you have vertical height limitations.
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Apache1
Question....are you able to walk under your trucks while on the lift w/o ducking? Appears you have vertical height limitations.

I’m not sure who the question is for.
As for me, my lift fits inside my building just fine. I chose what lift I wanted BEFORE I poured concrete or built the steel building. I needed 12 foot walls so that’s what I had them build.
The lift can be used at full height and I can walk beneath a vehicle without ducking. I’m 5’ 10” but 6’ 4” wouldn’t duck either.
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 04:20 PM

Lugnutz,
I did a search of your shop build as was suggested. I like the look of your shop and understand your size constrictions, looking at your pic of the 2 trucks in the shop make me believe I need something wider. I have 6 tool boxes, air compressor, blast cabinet, TIG welder, stick welder, drill press, band saw, bench grinder , 2 vises and who knows what else. (forgot the BEER fridg) All of this is stuffed in a 12' x 24' portable building, I spend most of my time moving things to get at what I need.
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Thu Oct 24 2019 09:38 PM

Yes, it’s tighter than what I want. I had to make it deep enough to handle a long bed truck on the lift.
I have room to work all around the truck but the bad habit of putting stuff on the floor (transmissions, tool boxes, parts, etc. )
If I clean up the clutter then things go better.
Posted By: tom moore

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 25 2019 12:11 AM

Ya know, been thinking about clutter and how much time it requires to keep things in order. No matter how big the structure is, keeping at organization and putting things away to find for the next use is a time challenge. This past week I must have put in at least 10 hours cleaning up and organizing small parts, hardware and tools. I don't mind doing this, but I have to keep at it or the small space fills up fast.
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 25 2019 12:39 AM

I have a brother -in-law that puts the tools back as I use them, talk about annoying! I spend half my time looking for something I just laid down. On the other hand when he's there I don't need to clean up the shop

Tom, I let you barrow my brother-in-law grin
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 25 2019 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by TUTS 59
I have a brother -in-law that puts the tools back as I use them, talk about annoying! I spend half my time looking for something I just laid down. On the other hand when he's there I don't need to clean up the shop

Tom, I let you barrow my brother-in-law grin

My son is an automotive mechanic and is annoyed by the clutter in my shop. He's used to working in a more spacious shop.
He taught me to use a rolling shop cart. Put the tools you need in the rolling shop cart and then back into the cart after each use. Tools go back into the tool box after the job is done. It's a proven method to keep track of the tools you are using without having to return them to the tool box each use. I have a rolling shop cart but unfortunately I use it for storing things that won't fit on my cluttered bench top. I just can't win!
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 25 2019 01:06 AM

Here's a view of the shop open house party you all missed. However, you can get the full experience by WATCHING THIS VIDEO!

My shop will probably never be that clean again!

Here's what I did for extra storage and to reduce shop clutter.
I bought some used industrial strength pallet rack. Very strong stuff like in Home Depot and Lowes. Then I made folding doors to hide some of the clutter on the lower shelf (and as a place to hang cool signs). VIDEO

Another link HERE FOR PALLET RACK INFO.

THIS VIDEO shows the completed shelves with tool boxes beneath the pallet rack and lighting mounted over the tool boxes shining down from the under-side of the pallet rack.
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Fri Oct 25 2019 11:31 AM

Lugnutz,
You'er just teasing the rest of us now. BBQ looked good, we do ribs and smoked chicken wings a lot here. I like the pallet doors (might steal that one), I have 2 of those pallet racks with movable shelves. I also have a tool cart, like yours it full of everything but tools. grin

I like the idea of having get together, just to meet eveyone else, now that would be COOL thumbs_up
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Sat Oct 26 2019 11:09 AM

TUTS 59,
Well, Brunswick, GA can’t be all that far from Columbia, SC. Come for a visit and see the shop if you get up my way.
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Tue Nov 05 2019 05:07 PM

So I have been researching roll up doors. While there is a great amount of information out there I can't seem to find anything on the the actual size of the framing for the door opening. I have been working on a lay out for the shop area and plan on using 10' x 10' doors. I would like to lay out the framing to see where the doors would set.
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Tue Nov 05 2019 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by TUTS 59
So I have been researching roll up doors. While there is a great amount of information out there I can't seem to find anything on the the actual size of the framing for the door opening. I have been working on a lay out for the shop area and plan on using 10' x 10' doors. I would like to lay out the framing to see where the doors would set.


I have 10 X 10 roll up doors. They don’t seal well for retaining heat or A/C but I like the width. I didn’t want overhead doors because of limitations when using a lift. I’ll measure the true width and height and get back to you. I’ll get you the name of the door company too. They weren’t cheap!
Posted By: MNSmith

Re: Steel Building - Tue Nov 05 2019 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by TUTS 59
So I have been researching roll up doors. While there is a great amount of information out there I can't seem to find anything on the the actual size of the framing for the door opening. I have been working on a lay out for the shop area and plan on using 10' x 10' doors. I would like to lay out the framing to see where the doors would set.



At my day job, the roll up doors sit in a channel of a Z type of bracket that bolt to the back side, or interior of the opening. So, designed for a variance of openings. Most of the doors on my shop are 12' wide by 14' tall. Some insulation value. Electric, with either push button or remote control, manual back up. Picture attached is a shot from the opposite side of my shop.

Attached picture shop floor.jpg
Posted By: Mike B

Re: Steel Building - Tue Nov 05 2019 09:34 PM

The garage door rough opening should be 10' x 10', actual door size. The metal siding and weather trim will finish it off.

Mike B smile
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Tue Nov 05 2019 09:41 PM

Just measured my doors. Exactly 10’ wide. Frame on sides is 123.5” but the rolled up door is a few inches lower than the top of the frame, so it’s gonna also be 10’. Which means I actually have a 10’ X 10’ opening.
Pics below.

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Posted By: Pat66

Re: Steel Building - Wed Nov 06 2019 01:23 AM

I have used rollup doors direct (1877-rldoors) twice now, the last doors had a whisker style seal which was much tighter than conventional seal, easy to put up and build any size no extra charge. Only problem I had was shippers have trouble handling and with out damage, both occasions rollupdoorsdirect resolved problem and held shippers accountable,hope this helps Pat
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Wed Nov 06 2019 01:30 AM

So doing the math, at 27.5' if I use two 10'x10' doors I will have 28" in the center and 28" on either side. Take in to account the width of the walls and the area on the sides is more like 21". Guess it's a good thing I will have 28' of length.
Posted By: TPR57C

Re: Steel Building - Wed Nov 06 2019 05:24 AM

What’s the two tow balls for on your truck Lugnutz
Posted By: glenns towing

Re: Steel Building - Wed Nov 06 2019 12:17 PM

Duh... to tow two trailers at the same time..lol dang
Posted By: TUTS 59

Re: Steel Building - Wed Nov 06 2019 01:57 PM

Pat66, Thank you for the info on Roll up Doors Direct. The web site is great (https://www.rollupdoorsdirect.com) lots of good info and even a guide to measuring the door space. thumbs_up
Posted By: Lugnutz

Re: Steel Building - Wed Nov 06 2019 02:01 PM

That’s my son’s 68. I think the balls are two different sizes. Options are a good thing.
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