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Posted By: pan3lman what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Wed Mar 03 2021 09:11 PM
My 1957 Panel needs broken lug studs replaced on both front wheels. I'm not restoring it to original. Are there generic grade bolts that I can pick up from Home Depot or Lowe's to use as replacements?

Thanks!
Posted By: bartamos Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Wed Mar 03 2021 09:31 PM
It's easy but Home Depot is not the place to go. Most flaps/Napa have the studs. Probably 7/16-20. At the length you need. On the bench, press or knock out the old and install the new. Search and read 6-8 different blogs/how-to's. Use a bunch of washers and a backward lug nut to draw the stud in.

Don't listen to folks saying that method won't work. The Internet has it done with washers and backward nut on Hemmings, Autozone, and a billion other places. Millions of lug bolt changes with NO problem. Pressing them in is also a good way. Pressing them out and pressing them in, has to be done with proper, strong, backing.
If you choose to pull lug studs in with a nut, call your insurance agent and beef up your life insurance. Also add a pretty good rider to your liability policy, in case you survive the accident you cause when the wheel comes off, but it runs over a few pedestrians. People with a few brain cells to rub together use a press.
Jerry
Posted By: bartamos Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Wed Mar 03 2021 11:49 PM
This is where engineers are helpful. To calm your fears of folks with myth theories. Sometimes their "common sense" is nonsense.
Train drivers- - - - -who would have guessed?
LOL!
Posted By: MNSmith Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 12:41 AM
I'll add that I've broken plenty of studs using the washer method. Even with plenty of lube. ESPECIALLY with an impact. Maybe, just maybe, if done by hand wrench you'll be okay. But I have even broken heavy truck studs that way. My travel truck had one of the tool box drawers dedicated for studs and lugs just for this reason.

The preferred method is with a press. Second best is with a beater. Beat on it until you hear the tone change.

Regular bolts are a no-go. They aren't designed for wheel stud service. Studs are designed with serrations on the shank to fit snugly in their hole.

My office about 15 years ago.

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Posted By: pan3lman Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 01:20 AM
Eureka!! I can do this!!

https://youtu.be/fE49dH3_aVE
Youtube sure makes it look easy. My studs were swaged in and did not come out quite so easy. I would guess it was 20X more difficult to get my studs out than that youtube video showed. After removing my studs, I attempted to use that very same tool from Lisle. I still broke a stud. I had them pressed in. I think they were just a couple thousandths too big for that tool to do it smoothly. The tool worked great on another vehicle however. Be prepared for your studs to not pop out like the video. I think maybe that was staged for the filming.
Posted By: pan3lman Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 02:31 AM
I learned a long time ago that it's never as easy as on TV!

I still remember doing my first (and only) A arm bushings. They needed to be pressed in, and I learned that the hard way. frown
Posted By: bartamos Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 04:07 AM
The ARP studs are made of steel with 190,000 psi tensile strength. The 7/16 shank will then be about 28,000 psi tensile strength. The threads would be about 10,000 psi tensile.

First of all we were taught NEVER to jerk or hammer on a wrench to tighten a nut. Never make a series of quick cranks on a socket wrench handle while tightening. This will snap the fastener. An impact wrench does exactly that. An impact wrench is really for loosening a bolt. Some of us DO NOT have an impact wrench with an adjustable torque setting. All we know is the box in comes in says the max torque is 250 ft lbs or 1000 ft lbs!!!! If you are using an impact to tighten a nut, or in this case, installing a stud, you are rubbing too many brain cells together. Some folks who are busting their studs are riding the impact trigger until she goes flush...and beyond.

A person may not have the correct size serration diameter for an already used hole.
As I said, pressing in is a good way. Not always possible. Not always wanting to pay a shop. If it breaks try another one. The luxury here is the drum comes off for good bench access. Hammer them in if you want. Click [youtube.com]

Many actual mechanics use the draw in method on the rear and FWD.
The most effective way to create an interference fit is a shrink fit as it is the least traumatic to the assembled joint. NO I am not recommending a shrink fit here but I am on board with HRL and Bartamos. Install with a hydraulic press as it is next on list as least traumatic and most robust assembly.
Take them to an automotive machine shop and have them pressed and swaged in.
What a better way to spend some of the upcoming stimulus check.
You get a safe assembly done right so You can sleep at night.
You stimulate the economy by providing a mom and pop shop with work.
Everybody that meets you on the road feels safe.
Just my thoughts.....
Posted By: MNSmith Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 07:40 PM
And how many people are buying ARP bolts? Dorman, more than likely.


I started being an actual mechanic 36 years ago. Think I'll put in another 6. I think I need to renew my ASE Master Auto, Master Truck, Undercar Specialist, Truck Equipment Specialist, and CFC Certified Mobile Hydraulic Mechanic only 2 more times in that six years. But what do I know.


Sorry, didn't mean to share my actual real life experiences.
Posted By: bartamos Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 07:48 PM
The best way is Mark's and Hot Rod Jerry's way. Press in.

If you are breaking studs doing any other way, buy a better stud.
Dorman Chinese metal no good for safety related items. As has been proven here.

The Lisle installer has a full 5 star rating with 1838 ratings on Amazon. That could mean no broken studs. This is the draw-in method.

I have some real world experience also:
Mechanical Design Engineer, Honeywell Flight Systems Division. 31 years.
Senior DIY instructor, Shade Tree Mechanics Institute (STMI Cert.) 6 mo's, mutual separation.
Bunch of cars and trucks. Probably about 60 years.

My comment was NOT aimed at any particular person and said "Some folks". Sorry Mark. This is not worth losing a Stovebolt friend. Of course if you are a mechanic and have a press, you would use it. I was trying to explain to the average DIY'er like me a way to do it that works. Web links, strength of ARP, impact warning, ratings on Amazon, and my experience. Members can choose any option as I tried to say each time. Some folks break them off, some don't.
Posted By: Barnfind49 Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Thu Mar 04 2021 10:34 PM
I cant say I have ever pressed a stud in. If they are out in the open and accessible I use the 2 hammer method and if not then I use a lug nut with washers and grease or if I think of it I have a flat encloses bearing from a puller that I slip over the stud. Never had a issue or heard of anyone I kno have any issues. Im sure someone tripped walking into a parts store somewhere sometime in history but that dosent mean Im not gonna walk into one. 🤷‍♂️
The broken studs that this thread started out discussing are in a set of front hubs, swaged into place, and they also secure the brake drum to the hub. I installed my first set of studs like that in the mid-1960's while replacing a worn out brake drum. I'd like to hide and watch someone do that little job without the specialized equipment required to cut the swaged part away, and another tool used with an air hammer to re-establish the swage to secure the new drum. I'll take notes- - - - -maybe I've been doing it wrong for over 60 years.
Jerry
Posted By: MNSmith Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 12:19 AM
bartamos, I retract my surly-ness.
Posted By: bartamos Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 02:02 AM
#MeToo
During the past 15 years I have investigated at least 30 "lost wheel" claims against so-called "professional" shops such as Firestone, Goodyear, Walmart, "Budget Brakes", "Tires Plus", a bunch of independent shops, and quite a few car dealerships. A noticeable number of them involved obviously overtorqued lug nuts which resulted in broken-off studs due to stretching of the threads. Most of these situations resulted in serious body damage to the vehicle involved. Some of them totaled the vehicle, and/or resulted in injury to the driver, passengers, or innocent people who just happened to get in the way of the runaway wheel. I've briefed attorneys on the type of questions to ask me in the event I'm called upon to be an expert witness in litigation. So far, nobody has wanted me to take the witness stand and explain the mechanical malpractice that results in the loss of a wheel. Several very large damage settlements were made in lieu of a trial.

If anyone chooses to install a wheel stud by pulling it into place with a nut, PLEASE use a torque wrench and do not exceed the recommended torque that would normally be used to install a wheel. On the 7/16-20 lug studs used on a lot of vintage stovebolts, that torque is less than 75 ft/lbs. On a 1/2"-20 stud, 100 ft/lbs. is a pretty good practical limit. Once a thread has been stretched beyond its "yield point", loosening the nut and retorquing it does not reverse the damage that has been done.

I've got a pretty thick skin- - - -I can handle a little ridicule, sarcasm, and mockery when I express some concern for my fellow stovebolters' safety, as well as that of the people who share the road with them, and the continued good condition of the vehicles they spend so much time and effort restoring.

Press on!
Jerry
Posted By: 2-Ton Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 04:55 AM
Jerry speaks the truth about exceeding the torque on bolts anywhere.
Different class bolt ratings are there for a reason. Once they are stretched beyond the specks, the damage is done and can’t be reversed.
As a Maintenance Machinist in the Nuke industry, we were trained with live demonstrations, on how bolting will premature fail, if over torqued just one time.

Ever wonder why combo wrenches are shorter for smaller bolts?
You guessed it, to keep you from over torquing that size bolt.
Just Hand tight by a normal person will get it closes to the proper torque.

Don
Posted By: 2-Ton Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 05:06 AM
Another thought.
There is a reason a good tire shop will use a torque wrench when installing your new tires.
Then take you vehicle for a few mile ride and then retorque the lugs nuts.
Every once in a while a few nuts will tighten up some, with the same torque setting, after a drive.

Don
Posted By: MNSmith Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 05:32 AM
Whatever the method, make sure you fully seat that stud. Failure to do so will end up with a loose lug nut.
Posted By: bartamos Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 05:36 AM
This brings up a good point, but everything I say is a good point, so no surprise there....anyway, the kids at tire shops, the biggest being Discount, are well trained. They are trained to use a torque wrench. And they are also given air impact wrenches. As I have said, these should be used for removal. So what do these kids do even after they become managers? You may ask? They use the impact to tighten the lug nuts. Then they use a torque wrench. Which clicks immediately. So what is the torque value of that nut? Nobody knows. They do look up the torque for that vehicle or it is printed on the order. So they set the wrench like they were trained....and as I said, it clicks right away after the air hammer hammered the nut on. Don't know what the max torque is on their heavy duty guns but could they be damaging the studs? ALL OF THEM ? if you buy 4 tires? Maybe, sometimes.

Second issue: They are trained to put the nut on by hand before using the impact. That's correct. So they make four twist of their hand/wrist. That's a lot of fastening. It's actually just one rev, one thread or less. If it's a little off, known as cross threaded, it gets ram hammered on and he never feels the resistance. Then he puts the torque wrench on it and it clicks right away.

Just food for thought for you insurance guys. Using a torque wrench is no guarantee at all. The nut has to be turned a rev or two by the torque wrench. Tires shops are using the wrong technique. You don't know where you are stopping an impact wrench, you just stop after it ratchet hammers a few times or a lot of times. They should be banned for tightening. Or use a low voltage DC cordless nut driver with an adjustment. The need to get customer thru put has negated training....or the Corporation doesn't realize they have a cart before the horse situation.
Just about anyone other than a mouth-breathing moron who needs help tying his own shoelaces can be trained to snug lug nuts with an impact wrench without exceeding the torque specs. That's why every professional-quality air wrench has a built-in pressure adjustment valve. Even with an impact set near its maximum power, using the correct "torque stick" for a specific diameter and pitch of lug stud will prevent over-torquing, as long as the proper technique is used. Shops that routinely overtorque lug nuts need a change in management, not necessarily a new work crew. Of course, someone who has not spent a lifetime in the auto repair business might not be aware of the tools and techniques available to professionals at the trade. That's what that "ASE Certified Master Technician" shoulder patch that a lot of us wear is all about. An automotive Master Technician is certified in 8 categories, and he must recertify every 4 years. Keeping 22 certifications current is a bit more of a challenge.
Jerry
IMHO
One of thee most important threads I have read on this site.
Posted By: pan3lman Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Fri Mar 05 2021 03:54 PM
So I'm here all weekend for any of you pro's that want to do my studs, LOL
Do you have access to a drill press and a BFH? Drop me a PM. I can walk you through a shade tree method that works.
Jerry
Posted By: 37 GC Re: what bolts can I use for replacement lug studs? - Sat Mar 06 2021 12:34 AM
yup, no one got hurt, but my experience with a shop screwup torqueing lug nuts was proudly driving my '57 two door hardtop belair away from the shop with its brand new paint, new wheels and tires when it went limp on the right rear at about 45mph. the tire went up into the wheel well, brake drum came off and backing plate bottom wore a flat spot as it made impressive sparks I'm sure. lucky the damage to the fender and inner fender was minor...but it was a brand new paint job. Expensive lesson for that shop foreman as they lost time and money on this one with another paint job as well as my dampened exitement! (putting it mildly) only a few miles away from the shop so the couldn't have no more than finger tightened.
When I worked at a Pep Boys many Years ago, we had an incident of a tire coming off. Long story short, Installer got Fired on the Spot. The Tech that was assigned to double check the installer was written up and so was the Service Manger. This was a small claim at 27,000 dollars. Luckly no one was injured!
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