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Posted By: 37 GC broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 01:35 AM
I have two broken off lug nuts on the rear axle of 1/2 ton '37. has anyone have a way to cheat and use pullers/whatnot to press them out without pulling the axle?
Posted By: '37 barn find Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 02:22 AM
Hi, I just went through the same thing with my '37 1/2 ton.
I tried a hammer and punch, heat and punch, and heat and air hammer punch with no luck. I finally pulled the axle and tried
to press it out with a large vice. I gave up and took it to a local automotive machine shop where it took a large hydraulic press
to get it out and even with that it didn't come out easily. After seeing that I felt that pounding on it hard enough to get it
out would likely cause damage inside the differential or warp the flange that the bolts are pressed into.
It was a hot muggy afternoon so I threw the guy a twenty for some cold beer after work and everyone was happy.
The axles come out pretty easily and it's a good chance to flush out the differential and replace the axle seals.
Good luck
Posted By: klhansen Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 02:45 AM
If you can take the brake drum off, you may be able to get a ball joint press in there and press out the stud. The studs may be swaged into a conical portion on the outer part of the hole in the axle, which would make them very hard to press out. I believe there's a tool to cut out that part so they can be removed easier.

Picture attached.

Attached picture ball joint press.jpg
Posted By: Phak1 Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 03:21 PM
If klhansen’s tip doesn’t work: A trick I have used numerous times as a machinist to remove rivets and bushings is to use a couple of drills that end up leaving about 1/32 to 1/16 wall thickness. Drill far enough that it goes thru the part holding the rivet or in your case stud, but not all the way thru the stud. This accomplishes several things. First, it weakens the walls so there is less compression, second, the drill generates heat and since it can’t expand outward due to the greater mass of the axle, it expands inward. When it cools, it contracts the outer wall loosening the rivet/stud. By not drilling all the way thru, you can use a punch to drive it thru. One more tip, on the last drill, don’t use lubricant. You want it to generate as much heat as possible.

You must exercise caution when drilling, so you don’t drill thru the side and destroy your axle. If the broken off stud is below the surface of the axle, use a drill that just fits and drill a small spot to center the smaller drills. If it is above or flush, grind it flush with the axle then center punch center as best as you can. It is better to leave too much wall thickness then take a chance of breaking thru. If it still won’t come out, take a OA torch with a small tip and concentrate the heat inside the hole you just drilled and get it cherry red. Let it cool then try the punch again. A propane type torch won’t work in this instance as it will spread out the heat too much. Good Luck and let us know the out come!
Posted By: Hotrod Lincoln Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 03:27 PM
I tried replacing all the lug studs on the rear of my 04 Ram 1500 awhile back (long story- - - -don't ask) and found that there was no room to use a ball joint press even if I removed the brake calipers. I ended up pulling the axles and replacing the axle bearings and seals while I had the axles removed. On a drum brake setup, there won't be as much room behind the axle flange as I had to work with. Bite the bullet and pull the axles- - - -it's a lot less work than fighting with it on the truck.

Yes, the studs are usually swaged in place. Either drill the head off the stud and push it through from the back side, or find the proper tool to cut the swaging away.
Jerry
Posted By: Phak1 Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 03:35 PM
Just read Jerry’s post and did not know about the swaging. If the swaging is above the axle, grinding it flush may do the trick. Maybe Jerry could elaborate on the swaging method used.
Posted By: klhansen Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 04:32 PM
I have to admit I've never tried using a ball joint press, but they advertise them for use on removing big truck wheel studs and brake anchor pins. Likely a lot more room there.
I did look thru the service manual, and it does mention using a special tool for re-swaging replacement lugs on 1/2 ton AD trucks.Hub bolt Peening Tool and Anvil J-554 [pic showing multiple sizes of peening tools]. It doesn't mention cutting out the swaged part, but just using a press to remove. Phil's method of partially drilling would work.

Attached picture IMG_3128.JPG
Attached picture IMG_3129.JPG
Posted By: coilover Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 04:34 PM
Maybe 40 years ago I bought an air tamp hammer from a salvage store that had "Bell Telephone" on it. It's about half the length of a regular one and takes a 1" air hose to feed it. Made various size drivers to mount to the 3" dirt compacting foot and have never ran into a king pin or wheel stud it wouldn't move. Have had grease catch on fire around a stubborn king pin but the tamp hammer always won. Sometimes had galled metal coating the pin where it just brought some axle with it. Really hope they put it in the coffin with my body when I die. On carry in axles I've seen the hydraulic press gauge go as high as 15+ tons before any movement so pins/studs can be tight.
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 04:45 PM
I have used THIS. [oreillyauto.com] O'reilly's loans them, Worth a try. Lots of PB blaster first. You really need an impact wrench for this.

Drilling as Phil said, will take a long time but it will work.

Also sounds like taking the axle out is not difficult.
Posted By: klhansen Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by bartamos
I have used THIS. [oreillyauto.com] O'reilly's loans them, Worth a try. Lots of PB blaster first. You really need an impact wrench for this.
That looks very promising. I'll have to try and remember that if I run into lugs that need replacing.
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 04:58 PM
I give it a 50/50 chance of breaking the tool.
Posted By: klhansen Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 05:00 PM
PB blaster, Heat and that tool may do the trick on stubborn ones.
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 05:14 PM
It really doesn't matter if the new wheel stud won't fit in from the back.
Posted By: klhansen Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by bartamos
It really doesn't matter if the new wheel stud won't fit in from the back.
Very true. That can be checked before pulling the axle.
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 06:55 PM
If I got the broken stud out, I would get the new one in. Maybe drill a hole in the backing plate in the right place. Right size hole for a metal plug. Lots of ways to plug the hole.
It does look like, however, that there is enough space to install stud.
Posted By: EdPruss Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 07:52 PM
Be careful, the O'reilly tool is ground to a smaller diameter than axle flanges on the backup side, so make sure it is fully seated, even worthwhile grinding the small radius to large radius to fit axle flange.

Ed
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 07:56 PM
You can't grind on a loaner tool. You can modify the axle flange a little. Maybe.
Posted By: '37 barn find Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 09:02 PM
One more thing I discovered- there are different lug bolts. There are different lengths for the knurled shoulder and overall length.
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 09:10 PM
....and some vehicles have lugs with left hand threads on left side of the vehicle and right hand threads on right side. Pontiac, jeeps, mopar........
Posted By: Hotrod Lincoln Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 09:19 PM
Swaging is done by upsetting the area of the shoulder behind the thread into a chamfer cut into the face of the axle flange. It more or less rivets the stud into the flange with a special tool on a pneumatic hammer, so if the swage isn't cut away with a special cutter similar to a heavy duty hole saw that fits over the stud, you're pushing the taper through a funnel. That will take two or three times the press force of removing a stud with the swage cut away. That O'Reilly tool might push the old studs out, but there's no way I can see for it to pull the new stud back in. If you try to do it with a lug nut and washers, go ahead and throw the new stud away now- - - -you'll stretch the thread and the stud will break again.
Jerry
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 09:26 PM
Willys have that swage. What a pain. The tool is megabucks. For one or two studs, a hole saw will work. Many folks/mechanics use the washer and backwards nut method to install. If you fear what Jerry says use THIS [amazon.com] As JonG posted
Posted By: Jon G Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 09:30 PM
I had to replace one a few months ago. This was in a 1969 Chevy 1/2 ton rear end (6 bolt hub). Once the axle was out, it was no problem. Wasn't swaged and four or five sort of dead hits with a hand held sledge knocked it right out the back. Then I used a little tool I got years ago to install the new one...think Lisle made it. The way that tool works is (a) you lube the lug stud, insert as far as it will go, put the tool over the stud, rub a bit of grease on the cone part, thread on the nut and start tightening it. As you tighten, it pulls the stud in smoothly all the way to where it stops. Biggest irritation was having to drain the oil and make a new gasket.
Posted By: Hotrod Lincoln Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 10:54 PM
After working as a warranty claim and shop damage inspector for 15+ years, I've seen enough stretched and broken wheel studs and run-off wheels from over-torquing of lug nuts that Bill Gates couldn't write a check big enough to make me install a stud that way. If you think that you're smarter than the engineers who wrote the torque specs, be my guest! I'll hide and watch while you try to make that spline cut its way into the hub or axle flange without stretching the thread. Just please let me know where and when you'll be driving so I can stay home and won't have to worry about dodging the wheels you're going to lose!

"What's worse- - - - -ignorance or arrogance?"

"I don't know- - - - -and I don't care!"

Jerry
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
After working as a warranty claim and shop damage inspector for 15+ years, I've seen enough stretched and broken wheel studs and run-off wheels from over-torquing of lug nuts that Bill Gates couldn't write a check big enough to make me install a stud that way. If you think that you're smarter than the engineers who wrote the torque specs, be my guest! I'll hide and watch while you try to make that spline cut its way into the hub or axle flange without stretching the thread. Just please let me know where and when you'll be driving so I can stay home and won't have to worry about dodging the wheels you're going to lose!

"What's worse- - - - -ignorance or arrogance?"

"I don't know- - - - -and I don't care!"

Jerry


Jerry I advise you not to read the automatic email you get. I advise you to read the stovebolt post. I have actually done it that way with NO problem several times. But to be more safe for someone else, I changed the post within a few minutes of first thought. So relax. Get some anger management help. You are NOT intimidating anyone.
The Internet has it done with washers and backward nut on Hemmings, Autozone, and a billion other places. Millions of lug bolt changes with NO problem.

Your posts are suggestions not demands.
Posted By: Hotrod Lincoln Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 11:14 PM
Just expressing an opinion based on real world experience, not Google-fu. "Your mileage may vary"- - - - -assuming the wheels stay put!
LOL!

I got over being angry at the pontifications of keyboard commandos a LONG time ago!
Jerry
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sat Jul 04 2020 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
Just expressing an opinion based on real world experience, not Google-fu. "Your mileage may vary"- - - - -assuming the wheels stay put!
LOL!

I got over being angry at the pontifications of keyboard commandos a LONG time ago!
Jerry

Oh, yeah, I see that you got over it.

You are the real world. I didn't know that.
Posted By: Jon G Re: broken off lug nuts - Sun Jul 05 2020 01:47 AM
Jerry (& others), please let me explain a little better. The new stud you get is very likely to have the same splines as the one you knocked out. Compare the two and see. If you'll feel around just a bit I think you can probably tell when the new one mates with the existing spline grooves...at least this worked for me. Then I doubt you will need anywhere near enough torque to do any damage. Especially if you grease it. Note: there were two types for 1969.. one for 6 lug and one was for 5 lug.
Posted By: bartamos Re: broken off lug nuts - Sun Jul 05 2020 01:58 AM
I guess that would be OK as long as it is tight enough to prevent turning. The spline OD needs to be sized properly.
Posted By: 37 GC Re: broken off lug nuts - Mon Jul 06 2020 01:04 AM
Thanks guys, yes I think there is room for the new one to fit back into place. I just didn't want to heat and bang around on something to get the job done only to find out I ruined everything else around it, bearings, seals etc. I am going to take one of the earlier solutions, bite the bullet and pull the axle,take it to town to a real press then do new seals, change gear oil etc and hope there isn't sawdust packed in there like in The Grapes of Wrath era fix for a growling rearend. Are the rear seals Felt like the front ones. C clips, bolts or what? Where can I find a breakdown illustration. never been into a vintage tube type rear.
Posted By: Hotrod Lincoln Re: broken off lug nuts - Mon Jul 06 2020 02:01 AM
The rear axle seals are rubber (or probably neoprene) lip seals with a garter spring to hold the lip tight against the axle shaft. They're pressed into the housing outboard of a caged roller bearing that's pressed into the axle tube. If you're only swapping seals, just use a big pry bar, lever the seals out, and drive new ones in. Changing bearings is a bit more involved- - - -the bearing cage is a tight press fit into the housing, and usually requires a special puller to remove the bearing. The bearing rollers also ride on a hardened section of the axle shaft, and if the shaft is worn, it must be replaced, or a special offset bearing can be used to place the load onto an unworn part of the axle. You won't know what you're dealing with until you get things opened up. The axles are retained by C clips on the inboard ends which can be accessed by removing the spider gear pivot shaft and gears, and pushing the axle shafts in about 1/2" or so. Good luck!
Jerry
Posted By: 37 GC Re: broken off lug nuts - Mon Jul 06 2020 02:41 PM
just delivered my reproduction Chevrolet '37 Shop manual from Rock Auto. quick glance gave an overview and doesnt appear to be a lot different than any other rear I've opened up. It did say to be careful not to damage the leather seals. I'll replace with neoprene. Rears seem to be available at a lot of places for rears, fronts are not. Had to have them mic'ed and special ordered. My front seals were leather(I think I misspoke and said felt). I guess they had never been replaced with more modern seals. front seals were toast from shop that turned the drums. not a great explanation and pretty brief in the book and talks about not reusing a couple of things and sealing some things with shellac...I'll figure it out after I get into it. a Busy week, keep everyone posted. BTW the book does say the lug studs are peened in place.
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