Stovebolt.com
Posted By: dhjmd Bring your best - Wed Jun 24 2020 03:00 AM
Ok all, so I’ve spent more than ten years restoring my 51 Chevy COE. She’s absolutely beautiful, but it will all be for naught if I can’t figure out the electrical 🤪. I kept her 6V as original and everything’s been rebuilt with 6V parts...starter, generator, signal switch, flasher, bulbs, etc. Just got a 6V battery installed. Dome light works, dash lights works, brightness level when rotating headlight switch works. The headlights and parking lights work...sort of. When I pull the headlight switch out to the first position (parking lights only) actually illuminates the headlights (the dimmer switch does work 😂) Pulling the rest of the way out (headlights and park lights position), the headlights go off and the parking lights come on! Turn signals don’t work...well, the flasher does its thing but no lights blink.

So I pushed the headlight switch all the way in, and let it sit overnight. The next day, the battery is dead, I mean totally dead. I wired the headlight switch and ignition switch as shown in the attached pics. In full transparency, I don’t yet have the the rear turn/tail/stop lamps wired up (wiring is run, but currently ‘open’ - no wires are touching any others or anything steel.) I also don’t have the fuel tank sender grounded yet. Could either of these be causing? Everything else electrical is connected.

Thx in advance for any help!
Derek

Attached picture 76B09A81-4A1D-43F9-877A-1D12A90A164C.jpeg
Attached picture 4237B5BD-29F0-4110-BC3E-A3CFF787BE47.jpeg
Attached picture Screen Shot 2020-06-23 at 10.03.39 PM.png
Posted By: Rusty Rod Re: Bring your best - Wed Jun 24 2020 03:37 AM
someone will chime in here soon... but we are going to need to see a couple pix of this truck.
Posted By: EdPruss Re: Bring your best - Wed Jun 24 2020 03:38 AM
It is helpful to put a relay(s) in the headlight system, after you figure out the leakage problem.

Are all the grounds clean?

Ed
Posted By: Lightholder's Dad Re: Bring your best - Wed Jun 24 2020 03:54 AM
You may have 2 problems. Killing the battery would suggest a short. When I have rewired something, the first thing I do before hooking up the battery is to put an ohm meter to the battery cables. With everything off, and assuming no shorts, you should have infinite ohms or lack of continuity. Or you can hook up one cable and drag the other across the post and in weak light you might see a spark. I just don't want to have an electric fire and burn up an expensive harness. If you have a short somewhere, then you have to find which circuit(s) might be involved.

The second issue relates to the wrong lights coming on. You could have mixed wires up, the switch may be bad or the harness is wrong. Only you know what items are new to your truck and which have been used before and proven to be good. For example if your switch worked before, it is highly unlikely that it is the problem.
Posted By: Jon G Re: Bring your best - Wed Jun 24 2020 12:34 PM
The switches were all the same and they do fail. I'd bet this is your problem if no lights stayed on and none of the open circuits were grounded when the switch was off. I'd get a handheld tester, remove the switch completely and test all functions of it. Good luck. The replacement switches will work but don't really match the old ones exactly.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 12:32 AM
Hi all,

Thank you so much for the feedback and ideas. I’ll definitely check them out and get some pics ASAP. FYA - everything is new. The harness, the headlight and signal switches, the lights/bulbs, the ground cable, the battery, etc. I’d say all the grounds are “clean”, as in, there are bolts or screws through everything and all thread into virgin metal/threads. Is it possible that the surface area isn’t enough? For example, I may need to strip some paint off the Xmsn housing for the main ground? Does the headlight switch itself ground through the dash? Also, the rod in my headlight switch doesn’t quite go all the way “in”...it stays “out” about 1/8”...is that normal?

Derek
Posted By: Jon G Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 01:04 AM
Hi Derek,
Your switch is broken. It is suffering the same problem I showed in a post on this same section. As long as you can't push it in all the way, it will be making contact and draining your battery. Please see my post and let me know if you have any questions.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 03:12 AM
Thx Jon, I saw your post ironically enough. So that even happens with brand new switches? It’s never gone all the way in and I was thinking the issue you describe happens when it actually goes “too far in”?

Thx again,
Derek
Posted By: Jon G Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 03:53 AM
The tip end of the rod is sharply pointed, Derek and there's just a wee bit of room between the tip and the bakelite end. Maybe 4 thousands of an inch. And bakelite can be extremely brittle. So the combination isn't a good one. I think the damage happens when the rod retainer groove gets worn, but apparently if you had a problem with a new switch that's not so. I was assuming your headlight switch was an original one. The import switches are different...not the same design at all, and I don't know where you would find a new Delco original switch today. Maybe somebody has some old stock on eBay, but it would be expensive as all getout. Take a look at this one (which I bought to study). Each of the brass rivets on top is a contact point inside the switch. I haven't opened it yet, but just looking at the top I can see a world of difference...and there is no way to release the knob rod.

Attached picture MVC-122F.JPG
Posted By: Jon G Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 03:55 AM
Also the circuit breaker for the import switch is housed in a separate metal box at the end of the switch whereas the one on the original sits right on top...you can see it easily in my first image.
Posted By: Phak1 Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 01:35 PM
Classic Parts sell both replacement switches for $24.95 and original style for $49.95. I bought a original style that matches the OP’s picture exactly. So far it works perfectly. The original style does not come with a knob or shaft so you will have to use your original.[LINK] [classicparts.com]

I added a picture of my old switch to show you how it is wired.

Attached picture A5937B10-B45A-4C0C-A5B0-C39A18D2CD17.jpeg
Attached picture 930FC35E-DE20-4059-B7CA-B0E9CCFBFFF6.jpeg
Posted By: Lightholder's Dad Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 04:49 PM
Derek, if you compare your photo with Phak1's photo above, it looks like you have switched the parking light and headlight terminal. That would explain one of your problems.
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 07:22 PM
This is the problem with the internet in general. People putting on things that are wrong. Not checked. Derek's labeled switch does not even match the diagram he shows.
As far as that two position ignition switch. You can't get it wrong. It makes no difference which wire goes to which terminal.

Use Phil's switch hook up. He knows what he is doing.

As far as your questions:
1. You now know why headlights come on at first click. You have park and headlights wiring swapped. As Kent has noted and Phil has pictured and your diagram shows.
2. The non blinking is because the tail lights are not connected.
3. The tail lights not connected and the ground for gas gauge are not causing dead battery.
4. The knob on the headlight switch is not designed to smack into the dash. So a clearance is normal if you have the shaft installed properly.
5. If you have a new switch, it is probably good. They don't fail often.
6. Your battery going dead could be anything. Probably something you wired wrong....or a bad battery. Go out after dark and observe any light on somewhere. Be sure key is off. Be sure ammeter is wired properly. It sounds like everything electrical is new. Installed and wired by you. Is that right? Do you have a glove box light or a under hood light? Newer radio? Bluetooth? HERE [wikihow.com] is how you check to see if you have a draw on the battery with everything off.

The labeled headlight switch used by Derek is from Deve's website....and it is wrong. It is unfortunately splashed all over the internet including the HAMB. I don't know if DEVE made the picture or he copied it from somewhere.

ALWAYS USE THE SHOP MANUAL. [chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com]
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 10:04 PM
Jesus, ok. This is awesome! Thank you all for your feedback. I'll have to get out to the truck this weekend and make some corrections. I (still) can't tell you all how much I appreciate your time, expertise and advice!!!

Derek
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Thu Jun 25 2020 10:21 PM
Your truck is serial 1001? Holy Moly...........that is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jun 27 2020 01:36 AM
Hahahaha, yes sir. I know. I thought the same thing when I found it in a barn in 2007! The story was as simple, but as rich as any you could hope for. This family owned it for over 50 years, having bought it from the local Chevrolet dealer who owned it for the first few years (and likely the reason for it being 1001!). So I was only the third owner. The only bummer was that it had lost its original engine and transmission long ago because of an unintentional date with a pond 😀 As bright spots, at least they replaced the transmission with one of the same US L serial number and a GMC 270 motor (with a bit more power👍). Thx again for all your help, I’m gonna try to get out to the truck Sat or Sun. Will keep you posted until we’re up and running!
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jun 27 2020 01:56 AM
So Phak1’s labeled pic shows STOP LIGHT left and DOME LIGHT right. The switch in the original schematic shows DOME LIGHT left, STOP LIGHT right. Can you guys confirm which is correct?

Thx,
Derek
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sat Jun 27 2020 02:09 AM
They are on the same terminal. Either is correct.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jun 27 2020 02:28 AM
Doh...guess all I had to do was look closer at the switch 🤪, thank you!
Posted By: Phak1 Re: Bring your best - Sat Jun 27 2020 01:28 PM
Is it possible you wired the ignition switch wrong (or simply left it in the on position, like I have done before) and the ignition was powered when you left it overnight. If that is/was the case that would account for the battery drain. On the ignition switch both the ignition and accessories terminal are electrically connected together. So if you wired it incorrectly, even if you switched off the key, the ignition could still be powered.

If you find that to be true, you may have also cooked your points, condenser and coil.
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sat Jun 27 2020 07:51 PM
Phil, testing on the ignition switch shown, if it is the two position, has shown that all are on and all are off, no matter how you wire it. Maybe someone can confirm that.
Posted By: Phak1 Re: Bring your best - Sun Jun 28 2020 01:06 AM
It’s the off position that I was thinking about. I haven’t tested the switch myself to confirm either way. I know you (bartamos) understood what I meant, but for the sake of the OP, I will explain my prior post.

We know, with the ignition switch in the “On” position, all three terminals are electrically connected. My questIon is, when the switch is in the “Off” position, are all three terminals isolated from each other? If two of the terminals are still electrically connected (in the “Off” position), then it could be easily be wired that turning the switch to the “Off” position would not disconnect power to the coil. Thus the drain on the battery.

If the switch in the “off” position does isolate all three terminals as you say, then my point is moot.
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jun 28 2020 01:52 AM
thumbs_up
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Tue Jun 30 2020 02:47 AM
Thx again guys! Unfortunately I didn’t get a chance to work on that part of the truck this weekend 😁 If the ignition was wired as shown in my original posting photo, and there was never a key in the ignition, could that still be an issue?
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Tue Jun 30 2020 02:50 AM
Don't understand the question. An issue with what? Does the switch turn or not? Is it a two position? (on/off)
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Tue Jun 30 2020 03:00 AM
Yep the switch turns, but I never did it with the battery installed 😂.

I originally installed the battery, checked out the basic lighting where I observed the issues in the original post. I was just asking if the ignition switch was wired as shown in my original photo, could that have been the cause of the drained battery?
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Tue Jun 30 2020 03:07 AM
If the other end of the wires went to the correct place and the switch was off, that would not drain the battery. As I posted, it does not matter which wire goes to which terminal on the switch. Trying to answer without being misinterpreted. Does that answer?
The sticking voltage regulator contact could cause it or other ignition malfunctions sticking.

Did you see the post that I linked, battery draw test??????
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Tue Jun 30 2020 08:34 PM
Yep, that answers the question - thank you! I just need to get back to the truck and do some investigating. I spent the weekend working on toolboxes and rear fenders wink I saw and reviewed the post about finding battery draw, again, just have to get some time to look more deeply into.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 07:45 PM
So with my multimeter on 2000k ohms, i touch the black lead to my negative battery cable and the red lead to the positive battery cable. The number jumps wround a bit and quickly settles on "1"?

I also checked out the link from bartamos to try and determine where the draw may be coming from but it has you tapping into fuses and the only two on my truck are for the tail and stop lights (as original)?
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 08:01 PM
You are set WAY TOO high. You need to read milli-amps. 1 usually mean "out of range". I only gave the link for the negative battery cable test to find parasitic drain (small milli-amp readings) not for fuse tests.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 08:12 PM
Changed to 200 milliamps (200m DCA) and get 00.1 or 00.0.

For that test, I need to have the battery installed and the positive hooked up. It then says to set to 20A, but my multi-meter only has a 10A setting. Would that be good enough?
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by dhjmd
Changed to 200 milliamps (200m DCA) and get 00.1 or 00.0. Changed what to 200ma?

For that test, I need to have the battery installed and the positive hooked up. It then says to set to 20A, but my multi-meter only has a 10A setting. Would that be good enough? YES

Use red cable to ma if you have that port on your multimeter
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 08:29 PM
LOL, we may be confusing two conversations.

Lightholder said to measure Ohms without the battery installed by touching the black lead to the negative cable and the red lead to the positive cable. I set the multimeter to 200k Ohms because he said if everything is wired correctly, it should go to infinity. I got "1", which as you said, means out of range, so I was assuming that test was positive. However, I'm pretty confident that if I put the battery back in, it will be dead tomorrow.

So I was moving on to your (bartamos) direction and was changing the setting of my multimeter but I only have 10A setting. I just wanted to know if that would be sufficient (even though that article you pointed me to says to set your mm to 20A.)
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 09:16 PM
To be more clear when you state setting. Say if it's the red plug in or the dial setting. Post pic of your meter if you want.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 09:34 PM
Will do, sorry. Ok, so here's two pics. Ignore the fact that I now have the battery charger on the battery. Before that, I had the positive cable hooked to the battery, and the negative cable disconnected. I put my mm on 10A and the red lead is in the 10ADC hole. When I touch the black lead to the negative battery post, I was hearing this clicking sound. After repeatedly touching and releasing, the horn started to go off. So I took the mm off and put the negative battery cable on the battery and the horn again started to go off. Then I got to thinking, s*&t, I forgot, I don't have the horn fully wired yet (as you can see in the second pic.) Would that be the cause of my battery drain? The strange thing is, when I first hooked the battery up a couple weeks ago and submitted the OP, the battery was not going off? Or maybe I've got the horn relay wired incorrectly? I'll have to get a pic of the horn relay...

Attached picture IMG_5668.jpg
Attached picture IMG_5670.jpg
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Fri Jul 03 2020 09:42 PM
Is that supposed to be the drain test you are showing? Hope not, because it's wrong and you are getting close to blowing the meter. I have no idea what you are showing in the meter picture. Please explain.
After that I will run you thru the test now that I see your meter. I would like to see a little better picture of meter by itself.

As far as the horn going off, that ain't good. So show me the relay wiring and explain exactly where each wire goes.

"Before that, I had the positive cable hooked to the battery, and the negative cable disconnected. I put my mm on 10A and the red lead is in the 10ADC hole. When I touch the black lead to the negative battery post, I was hearing this clicking sound."
Correct me if I'm wrong but this sounds like you had the meter red plug into 10A jack and dial on 10A .............and red lead hooked to positive battery post and black lead to negative battery post? Yes?
Where was the clicking sound coming from? Horn trumpet, horn relay or meter?............... or a cricket?
Posted By: EdPruss Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 12:45 AM
If you start by disconnection all the fuses, you will save some time, fewer hot circuits, then hook each fuse up in the dark of night and look for a spark, that is your leak.

Ed
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 02:23 AM
Bartamos. The only thing worth noting in that mm picture is the mm settings and the red lead - nothing else. The battery is a fake/look-alike so those metal looking plates on top don’t connect to anything. The black lead isn’t actually touching anything in that pic and I had already put the battery charger back on when I took that pic. A new pic of just the meter is attached.

Yes, when I ran the drain test with the negative battery cable disconnected, I had the red lead plugged into the 10A jack and the dial set to 10A. The red lead was then connected to the negative battery cable. When I’d then touch the black lead to the negative battery post, the horn relay would click (I think it was the horn relay but could have been the voltage regulator?) After several times, maybe 8-10, the horn (not sure if it was just one or both) started blowing. I then disconnected the mm and put the negative battery cable on the negative battery post. It then started blowing the horn again. So I disconnected the negative battery cable and put the charger on for the night.

Also attached are pics of my horn relay and voltage regulator. On the horn relay, the brown wire on the right goes to the steering column. The red wire in the center goes to the BAT terminal on the voltage regulator. The thicker red wire on the left connects to the two horns. Thanks again for your patience and willingness to help!

Attached picture 3DA73DB9-9213-443A-BAC2-BE2D810E5947.jpeg
Attached picture 4EEB06F0-0473-4A53-B86D-4BE1A3951F4D.jpeg
Attached picture D38093F1-8326-4869-8F31-1C3C3B5F7BFA.jpeg
Attached picture 9B17C7D9-8360-4D34-B618-AABB04A6AB83.jpeg
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 02:55 AM
Your explanations and your pictures and your methods are somewhat confusing. You do have the correct connections on one end of the relay. Also: On the relay itself, the convention from left to right is Load-Battery-Switch, which is what you have. It's obvious that your drain could be horn related. Therefore you need to disconnect the horn and do the drain test. Because the horn seems to be interfering with that test. Then, if you see no drain, you can assume that the horn was the problem. So assuming the relay is good, then something up at the column must is shorting. The horn wire is a ground wire which is shorted intentionally by the button parts. Those parts can touch due to incorrect assembly. I don't know if that is your problem or not. But the horn is your priority after the drain test.

Sounds like you know what you are doing, I guess. I will let others take over. We are getting nowhere.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 03:55 AM
When you say disconnect the horn, I just disconnect it from the relay?

Also, FYI, I don’t have the horn contact parts installed (reference the pic I attached earlier of the steering wheel.)
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 02:45 PM
Thx Ed, unfortunately (or fortunately), my truck is stock in that regard...it's only got two fuses, one for the stop lamps and one for the tail lamps!
Posted By: EdPruss Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 03:22 PM
You could do the same thing by just disconnecting hot stuff, lights, horn, brake lights, etc.

Ed
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 06:47 PM
Thx Ed! Luckily, my horn relay was clicking when I would hook up the battery. Upon further inspection, one of the two horns was blaring and getting extremely hot. It was just as you said, I disconnected it from the relay, and my battery voltage jumped back up. I connected it again and it sparked, and started blaring again! So I disconnected it, and that looks to have resolved that particular drain issue!!! I assume it's internally shorted somewhere, as I can see the plate moving inside when power gets applied, but I don't think it should be moving unless the horn button is actually being depressed. The other horn I have installed seems to be fine.

I was also able to resolve one of my park/head light issues by swapping the wires on the headlight switch - thx bartamos! We really need to find Deve and see if he can fix that illustration. I read he had some bad health issues and/or an accident, but I wonder if there's anyone else who can replace it for him?

Now the only issue I have left is that the park lights come on when I pull the headlight switch out to the Park position, but they go off when I pull to the headlight position (and of course, the headlights come on as expected.). I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the fact that I don't have all the turn signals hooked up yet?
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 06:59 PM
You are right, horn CAN NOT normally be operated without horn button being pushed. But you don't have a horn button installed. So if all is wired properly and you said:

"On the horn relay, the brown wire on the right goes to the steering column."

Are we supposed to know what that means? Is the wire bare end, or a frayed part touching metal? What is that wire doing? Where exactly is it?

As I already explained, the horn wire is grounded by the button. Grounded means touching column metal. That's how it completes the circuit and trips the relay. So if "column wire" is touching metal, it's trying to honk the horn............or the relay is bad or the horn itself is wired wrong.

You are having trouble being exact. Pretend we are not there to see what you see, because we are not.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 08:03 PM
I have a black wire soldered to the steering column mast jacket inserted in the column. This black wire is connected to a brown wire that I have run directly to the Switch connection (right end) on the horn relay. I have nothing else installed to the column at this point. No spring, no contact plate, no wheel (removed), no cap. Just the column, bearings, and mast jacket.

I have two horns installed, Delco Remy Model 651 and they are wired together and connected to the Load connection (left end) on the horn relay.

As you directed, I removed the brown wire from the Switch connection (right end) on the horn relay. I ran the battery drain test. All looks good - 0.00 on the mm. Just to double check, I hooked the brown wire from the mast jacket again to the Switch connection (right end) of the horn relay. I reran the battery drain test and "horn #1" immediately started buzzing/moaning/blaring. So, I think the cause of the battery drain is "horn #1". "Horn #1" was extremely hot to the touch, so I assume it's the culprit. What I haven't done is totally disconnected "horn #1" and tried to hook up just "horn #2" to the Load connection (left end) on the horn relay to truly isolate the issue to "horn #1".
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 08:38 PM
Horn relay mounting bracket/foot must be grounded according to 1951 diagram. You have mounted to painted surface. Attach a wire under screw to clean metal place.
Both horn brackets/housings must be grounded to clean metal place. No paint on horn bracket bottom or truck body. If the housings have a dedicated ground terminal/screw, be sure terminal wire is touching a clean horn terminal/screw and be sure other end is to clean metal spot nearby on truck.

When you add these grounds, you can't add them to another screw or bracket that is on a painted surface. To test, you can use well attached temporary wires to the battery negative terminal to see if the spark/honk/click/buzz...........goes away.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 08:44 PM
Thx bartamos, I'll give that a try. I didn't realize that screwing the paint-less horn relay to the firewall where a screw connects that unpainted surface to the virgin metal of the cab would cause a problem.
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 08:45 PM
I was still typing, re read in case you missed anything. Both the relay AND the horn grounds must have very good grounds. All other grounds must be bare metal attachments. The only "return" for the electrics is the WHOLE truck. Frame, body, motor.............to the battery. VERY critical. This is a long and torturous path. Everything is rubber padded/mounted. So braided cable, or other, must be used to bypass all those rubber isolators.
I.E. Frame to body, body to motor, motor to battery........in any order. Not to painted surfaces. Flexible braided cable is best.

Looks like you are doing a really good job and a very nice truck is emerging.

I hope you cleaned out that column hub, where the horn parts go. Can't get a ground thru that gunk.
Posted By: 52Carl Re: Bring your best - Sat Jul 04 2020 11:42 PM
The front parking light are only on with the switch half way out. They turn off when you pull the switch all the way out.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 02:50 AM
Bartamos, I was also thinking about the ground subject. When I was trying to confirm that horn #1 was causing the battery drain, and with the battery and horn relay still both fully hooked up, I removed the mounting nut from horn #1 (the mounting studs for the horn are integral to the horn housing and mount through L shaped mounting brackets bolted to the firewall.) I then started to lift the horn out of the mounting bracket (which was still mounted firmly to the firewall), and as I pulled the horn mounting studs out of the mounting bracket, it was sparking all the way. I presumed, maybe incorrectly, that such was an indication that it was finding a good ground and that something inside horn #1 was an issue? Not true?

Carl - thx for clarifying that such is normal! As I want them to be on also when I pull the headlight switch all the way out (with the headlights), I’m going to run a jumper from the Park to the Tail connections on the headlight switch!
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 03:36 AM
No not true. The only way it would spark is if there was voltage trying to find ground OR voltage touching ground. There should be NO voltage until horn button pushed. So you need a few tests. Keep the power wire OFF horns. You have a problem, as you know.

DO these tests.
DO NOT push horn button.
DO NOT let any wires touch ground.
1. test removed horn power wire for voltage.
2. test all three relay terminals for voltage. Do not disconnect the wires from the relay
3. Advise how you tested. With want instrument. How was instrument used. Specifically.
4. Report results. carefully, accurately. Each test. Each question.
5. don't do anything not on this list
6. Take off negative battery cable when finished with tests.
7. If using a meter, set to 20VDC. Red Plug into volt jack. Black plug into common jack. Touch wire/terminal with red lead and touch black lead to chassis ground.

YOU MENTIONED MAST JACKET: What is your definition of Mast Jacket?????????
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 05:37 PM
Ok bartamos, tests conducted per instructions. But let me confirm one thing. You said, "1. test removed horn power wire"...did you mean the Load, Battery, or Switch wire, because the only one that I removed earlier in this discussion was the Switch wire, which I left disconnected as shown in the attached picture, for the below tests.

I had the mm hooked up exactly as you stated. I put the negative battery cable on the battery (the positive was already on) and got the below results. I touched the red probe to the wire and the relay terminals (one at a time), while holding the black probe on truck ground for each test.

1) 0.00 at the Switch wire (currently disconnected from the horn relay) coming from the mast jacket bearing - and there should not be any voltage coming from so can I assume that the wiring to the button/switch is good?

2) 0.00 (Load) 6.5v (Battery) 6.5v (Switch)
So, there's no voltage on the 'Load' terminal that currently both horns are connected to, there's battery voltage to the 'Battery' terminal on the horn relay (coming from the voltage regulator) and there's battery voltage at the 'Switch' terminal on the horn relay (again, with the wire from the Switch disconnected.)

Attached picture image.jpeg
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 08:34 PM
I am pretty sure I understand. I will restate my test so you can do it one more time. I was not clear.

1. First, take off battery negative cable off of the battery post until just before test. I will tell you when to put it back on. Keep the positive battery cable on the battery.
2. Make sure the horns are mounted as they were to their brackets and firewall or wherever/however they were mounted.
2. Attach all three wires to the relay. Load-battery-switch. Sounds like you had the switch wire removed for the first test. So reattach.
3. Disconnect the wire on the horns that comes from the load terminal on the relay. Keep it from touching anything while it's loose.
4. Get the meter ready to test for DC voltage.
5. Attach negative cable back up to battery.
6. Test the loose end of the loose wire in no. 3, for voltage.
7. Test all three screw terminals at the relay, one at a time for voltage.
DISCONNECT NEGATIVE CABLE AFTER TEST
Report
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:02 PM
Lol, shoot, I'm sorry man. Thanks for hanging in there with me. Ok, so same setup with mm as before. Now the Switch wire is connected to the horn relay terminal and the Load wire from the horns is disconnected from the horn relay terminal (and not touching anything else).

The loose end of the Load wire from the horns measures 0.00V. The Load terminal on the horn relay (from which I removed the Load wire) measures 6.5V. The Battery terminal on the horn relay measures 6.5V. The Switch terminla (which now has the Switch wire attached) is at 0.15V
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:05 PM
I think you are playing with me or you can't read. Read it again. You did it wrong.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:16 PM
Unfortunately, I'm not screwing with you. #2 says attach all three wires to the horn relay. #3 says to remove the wire from the horns to the Load relay. If you meant to say remove the wire from the horns but leave it attached at the Load terminal of the horn relay, I can't. The horns only have one wire each coming from them. They are connected together, in parallel, and connected to a single wire that runs to the Load terminal on the horn relay. To remove either of them from the equation, I'll have to break that hard connection.

Attached picture image.jpeg
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:17 PM
We won't dwell on what you did or how the horns are wired for now.

So from what I read on your voltage report is that all three terminal on the relay had voltage.....right?
The one that should NOT have voltage is the load terminal. You say it has 6.5V........right? This is the terminal on the relay that has a wire going to the horns on the firewall......right?

So since you have voltage on that terminal, it is sending voltage to the horns even when button not pushed. So that means either the mast bearing wire is touching ground somewhere inside or along the way to the relay or you have a bad relay. So now you need to put ALL WIRES back on EXCEPT the wire at the relay that comes from the column. This will mean you will have a new loose wire. It means you will have a terminal on the relay, called the switch terminal, with no wire attached because it is loose.

So do a voltage test on the end of the loose wire and a voltage test on the relay switch terminal (the one with no wire attached to it).
Then, one more thing, while wire is still off of the relay switch terminal, retest the load terminal on the relay for voltage.
REPORT

NOW let me know that you understand BEFORE you do the test. Obviously you need the battery cables attached to the battery and obviously you need mm set the same. Also answer the questions so that I understand.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by bartamos
We won't dwell on what you did or how the horns are wired for now.

So from what I read on your voltage report is that all three terminal on the relay had voltage.....right? Correct
The one that should NOT have voltage is the load terminal. You say it has 6.5V........right? Correct
This is the terminal on the relay that has a wire going to the horns on the firewall......right? Correct

So since you have voltage on that terminal, it is sending voltage to the horns even when button not pushed. So that means either the mast bearing wire is touching ground somewhere inside or along the way to the relay or you have a bad relay. So now you need to put ALL WIRES back on EXCEPT the wire at the relay that comes from the column. This will mean you will have a new loose wire. It means you will have a terminal on the relay, called the switch terminal, with no wire attached because it is loose. This is the scenario I ran in the first test and the results are posted in the previous reply.

So do a voltage test on the end of the loose wire and a voltage test on the relay switch terminal (the one with no wire attached to it).
REPORT

NOW let me know that you understand BEFORE you do the test. Obviously you need the battery cables attached to the battery and obviously you need mm set the same. Also answer the questions so that I understand.
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:54 PM
It's gotta be the mast bearing grounded inside the column. I disconnected the wire coming from the mast bearing, from the wire that is connected to the Switch terminal on the horn relay. Put the negative battery cable back on and voila, no horn honking, or relay clicking, etc. When I remeasured the voltage at all three terminals, I now get 0.00 on the Load terminal, 6.5V on the Battery terminal, and 6.5V on the Switch terminal (which again, is disconnected now from the mast bearing wire in the steering column.)
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 09:58 PM
OK, so the test show that no voltage at the load when switch wire disconnected and there is voltage when switch wire is connected. This seems to indicate that the switch wire coming from the column is shorted to ground.

So take switch wire loose from relay and do a mm continuity test, test between the end you removed from relay and a good ground. Should be no continuity. Continuity will confirm a short. You said you attached a wire from the relay to the mast bearing wire....right?
Is that connection protected from touching anything?

I WAS TYPING WHEN YOU RESPONDED SECOND TIME
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 10:20 PM
Correct, the mast bearing wire is connected to a wire that runs from under the dash to the Switch terminal on the horn relay. I disconnected at the location under the dash and made sure that neither end was touching metal of any sort - and to my delight, there was no clicking/moaning/blaring of any kind when I put the negative battery cable back on! I also checked the battery voltage at the battery posts and confirmed there was no drain occurring. So tomorrow, I will run continuity test by reconnecting that wire under the dash (effectively again grounding that wire), after disconnecting the wire from the Switch terminal of the horn relay. If confirmed, I'll see if I have time to pull that mast bearing back out and see where it may be contacting the inside of the column tube. Thank you again bartamos for all the help!
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Sun Jul 05 2020 10:28 PM
thumbs_up
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Mon Jul 06 2020 04:00 PM
Sure enough bartamos, I disconnected the Switch wire from the horn relay and plugged that same wire under the dash back into the mast bearing wire. I ran continuity test from the disconnected end of the Switch wire (horn relay end) to ground and got like 005 on 200 Ohm setting = continuity smile Good, well at least I have isolated the problem! Now to get the mast bearing out and see where she's touching. What's the best way to ensure that it doesn't ground to the inside of the column tube?
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Mon Jul 06 2020 06:52 PM
Usually you tie another wire or string on it before you pull it out, so as to be able to pull it back thru. If the mast bearing is new, it should be good. If wire not pinched on install, or damaged during install, I don't know what could be wrong. I assumed it was the add-on wire that was the culprit. As wire leaves the column, it should be protected and tied up away from rubbing on sharp edges. The upper mast bearing is a combo bearing and electrical slip ring. It is a pretty straight forward install. Be sure you don't have the steering wheel or something else touching the copper slip ring portion of the bearing. Maybe you can do a continuity test on just the bearing wire by disconnecting the add-on wire, if you can reach in and test.
Where do you have the wire exiting the column? I believe that is near the top of column?
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Mon Jul 06 2020 11:13 PM
Yeh, I have the mast bearing wire exiting the column near the top. Shoot, why didn’t I think of disconnecting that in-between wire and checking continuity of just the mast bearing wire?! Don’t answer that. I’ll have to check that tomorrow.

I did make sure to guard that in-between wire from metal and sharp edges so I don’t think there’s any of it exposed anywhere. I’ll have to double check that tomorrow as well...
Posted By: bartamos Re: Bring your best - Tue Jul 07 2020 12:18 AM
..................and nothing touching the slip ring/copper ring on top of bearing. Right?
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Tue Jul 07 2020 03:23 AM
Wrong. So now we’ve got the real cause. I had a flat washer and a lock washer around the internal steering rod, laying on top of the copper ring of the mast bearing. I don’t even know why I had those on there because it’s not like I had the spring or contact plate or wheel installed, and certainly didn’t even think about them causing a Ground situation. When I removed those two washers, no more continuity! Hooked my Switch wire back up at the horn relay, no clicking, horn blaring, battery drain, etc. I just won dumb **** of the year award for that one. Sons a ****...
Posted By: Justhorsenround Re: Bring your best - Tue Jul 07 2020 12:39 PM
dang we’ve all done stuff like that. You’re extremely lucky that bartamos stayed with you. Normally about the end of the first page of posts he’s pulling his hair (if he has any left) and throwing in the towel.😁
Posted By: dhjmd Re: Bring your best - Tue Jul 07 2020 01:26 PM
Thanks Martin, don't I know it! That was obvious in one of his earlier posts, where I was clearly frustrating him with my descriptions smile I'm not sure why he stuck with me, but I'll never be able to thank him and the others that chimed in along the way, enough!
© The Stovebolt Forums