The Stovebolt.com Forums Home | FAQ | Forum | Swap Meet | Gallery | Tech Tips | Events | Features | Search | Hoo-Ya Shop
Big Thanks!

Big THANKS to

MONGO
for hosting
the weekend event.



Read all about it.


Stovebolt Site Search
'
Oh Lord, I just gotta find it....

A pdf guide to help you search the Site


Old Truck Calendars
Months of truck photos!
Nothing like an old truck calendar

Stovebolt Calendars

Check for details!


Who's Online Now
1 members (TPR57C), 71 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums60
Topics124,721
Posts1,006,680
Members45,016
Most Online1,229
Jan 21st, 2020
Image Posting Policy
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Just a little bit more
#1414307 Sat Jun 19 2021 08:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
So working to get my restoration to start for the first time. Kept all 6V. Tried previously only to find out the guy on eBay sold me 12V coils instead of 6V. Got new (slightly smaller) 6V coils and at least the motor is turning over now…a little bit, but not nearly enough. When I originally took it apart, it had two coils. BTW, engine is a GMC 270 and it used to turn the motor and start fine before the restoration. Starter was bench tested before I put in, and battery is brand new 6V showing plenty of voltage. Again, it turns the motor over but barely. The only other thing that’s changed is that the 270 was bored 0.090 over as part of the rebuild. I’ve heard that maybe I need a four coil setup in the starter but wanted to see if anyone had any other thoughts before I blindly went that route. This is in a 1951 Chevy COE, FYI 😬

Thx,
Derek

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1414310 Sat Jun 19 2021 08:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,055
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
Many times the starter turning over slowly is directly related to poor grounds. Make sure ALL your grounds are touching BARE metal. Paint, undercoat, corrosion, dirt and dried grease don’t flow current very well. Scrape and wire brush them all. The fact that you have had your starter apart is suspect also. When I first read your post I was having a hard time understanding why a truck engine would have 2 coils then realized your were talking about starter field coils not ignition coils. Good luck.


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)
‘65 Chevy Biscayne 4dr 230 I-6 one owner (I’m #2) “Emily”
‘39 Dodge Businessmans Coupe “Clarence”



"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop!
USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1414314 Sat Jun 19 2021 10:25 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
After checking those grounds and checking all the positive cable connections and being sure the cables are BIG.

pix WAIT WAIT WAIT pix

for Jerry to address your "rebuild" as to serious binding/new rings and bearings and tolerances/first start procedure oiling/bad rebuild/etc.
Just to be safe.

Meanwhile explain what you have done or were told to do before first start. Spin oil pump? Turn over without plugs? Special oil? RPM's and length of first run. Anything?

You only need one coil. Who the heck is telling you these things?

Be aware: If starter "bench test" was under load, that's one thing, but if just spun on the bench, it can fail under load of turning motor over after install.
If battery is not load tested , it can show good volts at rest, but break down under starter load. So can cables and their clamps and grounds. Don't be fooled by the word "new" or "rebuilt" or "bench tested". Motor is new rebuild, starter is bench test like new, battery is new, cables are new, coil is new....so guess what, something new/rebuilt/tested is bad.

Here are some other items, not covered, that may possibly cause slow cranking:
1. Foot start button switch
2. Solenoid
3. Ignition switch
4. The wiring for 1, 2, 3
5. Timing WAY off
6. Stuck heat riser
7. Water in your oil, check the dip stick
8. Anything funky you forgot to tell us

Last edited by bartamos; Sat Jun 26 2021 11:44 PM.

Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1414504 Tue Jun 22 2021 02:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
I’ll look at my grounds closer. I’m guessing that’s the issue.

Https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/engines/261%20rebuild/break-in.html Is what I’ve been using as reference for first start attempt. This engine has not had any attempts to be started since rebuild. It was rebuilt by a professional engine shop in the area.

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1414530 Tue Jun 22 2021 03:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 23,008
H
'Bolter
It sounds like you need to find a competent starter rebuilder. Anyone who swaps field coils to the wrong ones doesn't know enough about starters to be tinkering with them. Why was the starter "rebuilt" to the point of replacing field coils in the first place? It would probably be best to swap to an un-bubba'ed starter and see what happens then.

John's new 261 rebuild was a bit reluctant to crank on 6 volts, especially with the Mickey Mouse cable setup we were trying to use. I swapped ignition coils for a 12V unit, got some real battery cables built from #0 welder cable, installed a hot 12V battery, and the thing started on the first try afterwards. After the cam break-in run we switched back to 6V and had no problems. I'd suggest you do something similar to get the engine running.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415014 Sat Jun 26 2021 06:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
Checked my grounds, cleaned some painted areas. No difference. Wanna check my battery cable sizes. I got the attached from the online Chevy Truck sites as they were said to be for 6V. Is this what I should be using? They each have a “1” stamped on the battery post end, which I assumed was 1/0 AWG or zero gauge. Wrong?

Also, as another point of reference, I noticed the starter, on the commutator end was getting pretty warm after only a couple attempts to crank. I assume that’s normal, especially since it’s not even hardly turning the engine over?

Attached Files
1EF09CE5-DA10-4487-897E-3E32F47FF550.jpeg (202.13 KB, 151 downloads)
Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415023 Sat Jun 26 2021 07:45 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
Too long between your posts. You are moving too slow. If you got the cables at a known good vender, they are OK. You should use 0. 1 will work with a short cable. The mark you see is probably NOT the size. It's a tooling mark. Now answer some questions.

1. Is this GMC a positive ground system?
2. Do you know what positive ground means?
3. What is your positive battery cable attached to?
4. Do you have a foot start starter?
5. Who bench tested the starter? What kind of bench test? Just spin or a load test?
6. Who rebuilt the starter. What is the vendor and part number of the starter.
7. How many coils are you using?
8. What is your negative battery cable attached to?
9. Are you saying that the motor rebuilder did not start the motor? If not, do you know how he timed it?
10. Have you checked the static timing? Do you know how?
11. The "Tech Tip" you are using is not applicable to your situation. It deals with after it starts and fluid/fuel checks. You are not at that point yet.
Answer the questions and stay engaged with this post if you want help. Don't wait 5 days to answer. These questions are designed to start at the basic beginnings. Making sure we understand what you have. We will move to other areas and causes if needed. Answer carefully, completely.

Yes, when a starter can not turnover the motor and you keep trying, it will get HOT. So will the cables and the battery.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
bartamos #1415030 Sat Jun 26 2021 08:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
Originally Posted by bartamos
Too long between your posts. You are moving too slow. If you got the cables at a known good vender, they are OK. You should use 0. 1 will work with a short cable. The mark you see is probably NOT the size. It's a tooling mark. Now answer some questions.

1. Is this GMC a positive ground system? I don't believe so. It had been changed to 12V before I bought it and the POS battery cable went to the starter and the negative battery cable went to the transmission cover.
2. Do you know what positive ground means? Yes, but again, it was wired negative ground and ran when I purchased so I kept it as such.
3. What is your positive battery cable attached to? Battery to starter post
4. Do you have a foot start starter? Yes
5. Who bench tested the starter? What kind of bench test? Just spin or a load test? I tested the starter to make sure it spun, didn't do any kind of load test.
6. Who rebuilt the starter. What is the vendor and part number of the starter. I rebuilt it. Had the original 1107055 starter on it. I rebuilt with new components but kept it 1107055.
7. How many coils are you using? 2, that's all it had when I took it apart.
8. What is your negative battery cable attached to? Battery negative post to transmission cover.
9. Are you saying that the motor rebuilder did not start the motor? If not, do you know how he timed it? He did not start it. I do not know how he timed it.
10. Have you checked the static timing? Do you know how? I have not, but good idea. Yes.
11. The "Tech Tip" you are using is not applicable to your situation. It deals with after it starts and fluid/fuel checks. You are not at that point yet.
Answer the questions and stay engaged with this post if you want help. Don't wait 5 days to answer. These questions are designed to start at the basic beginnings. Making sure we understand what you have. We will move to other areas and causes if needed. Answer carefully, completely. I will try! Unfortunately, I have no time to work on during the week, so I apologize.

Yes, when a starter can not turnover the motor and you keep trying, it will get HOT. So will the cables and the battery.

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415032 Sat Jun 26 2021 09:17 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
Thanks for the speedy and complete answers. I like it.

OK THIS IS REAL REAL REAL IMPORTANT>>>>>>>>>>>
1. You say you have a 6V battery but truck was converted to 12V. What does that mean? You converted the conversion back to 6V? Why? Please Explain in detail what you did and your purpose.
2. Do you just have one ignition coil? 6V?
3. Do you have a ballast resistor wired in still?

Negative cable to "transmission cover". Explain. Bell housing bolt? Nice clean bare metal?

Any chance to get good clear well lit pics of all wiring? I.E. starter, coils, ballast (if in place), showing where each wire goes.

I will advise how to fix all this after all the above questions are answered.

Last edited by bartamos; Sat Jun 26 2021 11:10 PM. Reason: Trying to fix my confusion

Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415035 Sat Jun 26 2021 09:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 23,008
H
'Bolter
GM STARTERS have either two or four FIELD coils, depending on their torque rating.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415036 Sat Jun 26 2021 09:48 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
I thought we were talking ignition coils? Aren't we? Now I'm getting ready to go off the deep end. Without a paddle.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415039 Sat Jun 26 2021 09:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 23,008
H
'Bolter
In his first post the OP said he had installed the wrong STARTER field coils. Everybody has been getting plenty of exercise jumping to conclusions! There are at least half a dozen different torque ratings available by combining different types and voltages of field coils and armatures.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415042 Sat Jun 26 2021 10:50 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
OK, I see now. When he said "when I originally took it apart it had two coils" I thought "it" meant the 270 motor, Sorry. I should go back to the home now.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415043 Sat Jun 26 2021 10:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,055
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
Ok, went back and reread your first post. You state you have a fully charged 6 volt battery. If you are trying to turn a 12 volt starter with a 6 volt battery there’s your problem.This thread is getting way hard to follow.


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)
‘65 Chevy Biscayne 4dr 230 I-6 one owner (I’m #2) “Emily”
‘39 Dodge Businessmans Coupe “Clarence”



"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop!
USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415044 Sat Jun 26 2021 10:55 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
Some of that is my fault. I confused ignition coil with starter coils. Jerry still has it, I don't. I got in the Medicare donut hole and didn't buy my medicine.

Martin: he did say he finally got 6V starter coils, so I guess the starter is 6V. I will wait to see why he converted back to 6V, if that is what he did.

Derek...you can run a 6V starter on a 12V battery/ignition system. I would seriously consider converting to 12V. But I really don't know what you have. I would ask that we don't talk about the starter coils anymore until I sleep one night.

Your issue is, as you know, is probably: bad battery, bad starter rebuild, timing or worse. Don't trust any of those. Ignition switch and wiring is also subject. The cable size and ground seems fine if bolted to a clean metal, major component.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
bartamos #1415061 Sun Jun 27 2021 02:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
Originally Posted by bartamos
Thanks for the speedy and complete answers. I like it.

OK THIS IS REAL REAL REAL IMPORTANT>>>>>>>>>>>
1. You say you have a 6V battery but truck was converted to 12V. What does that mean? You converted the conversion back to 6V? Why? Please Explain in detail what you did and your purpose. Yes, I converted back because I wanted it original. So, it’s now 6V battery, starter, IGNITION coil, gauges, bulbs, etc. I added a 6V generator. It already had the 6V flywheel and I kept the correct 6V starter gear.
2. Do you just have one ignition coil? 6V? Yes, yes.
3. Do you have a ballast resistor wired in still? No.

Negative cable to "transmission cover". Explain. Bell housing bolt? Nice clean bare metal? I put it back in the place it was when I bought it. It’s a vertical bolt that holds the cover on top of the SM420 tranny. The cover was covered in paint so I spent some time today taking it down to bare metal. Interestingly, it seemed to have no effect which kind of makes me wonder if there isn’t paint on another set of faces somewhere that keeping me from getting ground back to the starter? Several weeks ago, I took the paint off the starter mounting face and the corresponding bell housing area. I’ll get some pics tomorrow of, along with others you asked for! Thanks for the help!

Any chance to get good clear well lit pics of all wiring? I.E. starter, coils, ballast (if in place), showing where each wire goes.

I will advise how to fix all this after all the above questions are answered.

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415064 Sun Jun 27 2021 02:22 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,335
B
Sir Searchalot
No need to provide pics. I understand now. I was thinking what I would do next. I might take out all the plugs to see if the starter really starts to spin. That would still put it under some load to rotate the mass and could give some clue. I may also try pushing it or pulling it in 2nd or 3dr to get it started. I may check timing before any of that. I may start to second guess my starter rebuild after that. Putting a volt meter on battery while trying start motor may also give a clue depending what static voltage is and what it drops to when cranking with plugs in and plugs out.

I guess your battery is in the floor and the trans cover is near the battery post, but not sure if there is grease, oil, gasket, paint involved in getting ground to the starter motor body from there. Maybe a direct cable from battery to starter mounting bolt would give a clue. Right now the issue is starter speed, so with a foot start, the only ground that matters is the battery getting good ground to the starter metal. A bench test hook up while on the truck.

Make sure the starter mounted button switch is good and it's copper landing pad on the starter is protruding enough and clean. Depress the starter button by hand or 2x4 to eliminate linkage throw problems and to be sure it's not a partial button contact issue. Check oil. Loosen belts. Any drag on motor issue you can think of. Trying to convict the starter.

Anyway there is a bag of thoughts for you next weekend.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
I used to think beer was bad for me, so I gave up thinking.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1415072 Sun Jun 27 2021 03:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
Thx bartamos! I’m gonna try the ground direct to the starter mounting bolt first. If that doesn’t work, I’ll pull the plugs. I’m guessing it’s either the ground or it’s way off on timing, so I think the static timing suggestion is a good one that I’d like to do as well.

Re: Just a little bit more
dhjmd #1416026 Tue Jul 06 2021 12:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 158
D
dhjmd Offline OP
'Bolter
Just to keep this thread up in the event it helps someone else down the road. I tried the clean ground suggestion with no luck. I wired in a 12V coil and battery and got decent cranking speed. No start though. Next cracked the vacuum line to the wipers and had wife inject continuous stream of gas while trying to start. Got it to fire off and kept running for 4-5 seconds by feathering the throttle before I had to shut down because of a leaking water valve (who would’ve thought) and engine oil coming out of the cylinder head where the ignition coil is mounted on standard trucks (again, didn’t realize the two holes were threaded deep enough to have oil behind). Anywho, will do one more post when finally successful.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Rusty Rod 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Home | FAQ | Forum | Swap Meet | Gallery | Tech Tips | Events | Features | Search | Hoo-Ya Shop
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4