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12 volt alternator with original starter
#1413076 Tue Jun 08 2021 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Hello, I’m new here, and tried to search for an answer, but without success.
I have a 46 ute down here in Australia, with the original 216 engine.
It had a 12 volt battery installed when I bought it.
Some time back I changed the generator to an alternator and swapped the old starter for a new 12 volt one that matched the alternator.
I miss the old foot pedal start, and would like to put the old starter back in.
My question is how do I wire it up to the alternator, considering the old starter doesn’t have a solenoid.

Bob

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413108 Tue Jun 08 2021 03:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,175
Moderator - The Electrical Bay and Rocky Mountain Bolters
Hello Bob, welcome to the bolt. There are a couple other members "down under". Someone will come along in a bit to answer your questions.

Please introduce yourself in the welcome forum and post a couple pictures of your Ute.


Another quality post.


Real Trucks Rattle

HELP! The Paranoids are after me!
Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413137 Tue Jun 08 2021 05:28 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,245
B
Sir Searchalot
1. Starter has nothing to do with charging. The starter just turns the motor for starting and, in case of a 12V system, provides a "bypass" during start. To save points.
2. I assume you are keeping the 12V system. I.E. coil, battery, bulbs, Ballast resistor, etc....and points distributor.
3. The old 6V starter will work with the 12V system.

You will need to change the button on top of the starter to a "side terminal" type. The solenoid has a "R" terminal for bypass and the foot style uses the side terminal button. Click [classicparts.com]

The ballast resistor is used for a 12V conversion. It is used with a 12V coil that is externally resisted. If you have an internally resisted 12V coil, you don't need a ballast resistor or side terminal button. If you have any questions feel free to ask before installing anything. Also, I'll try to send you a PM (Private Message). I don't know if you can receive them as you are new. Guess not. Maybe moderator can advise.

Nice to see a fellow from Down Under. Greetings from Up Top.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413188 Tue Jun 08 2021 10:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Thanks Rusty Rod. I've added a post to the Welcome forum

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bartamos #1413202 Tue Jun 08 2021 10:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Hi bartamos,
When I first had a go at tidying up the previous owners 12 volt conversion, I purchased a a kit from Vintage Auto Garage, which included an alternator, coil, electronic ignition (to replace the points) and key switch starter motor.
I don't have a ballast resistor, so I assume the coil is handling that.
The alternator I have is a 2 wire, 10Si
White wire to the coil, and red wire to the solenoid.
I got that connected easy enough, and it has been working fine.

I now want to go back to the old starter (and foot pedal), but keep the alternator, coil and Pertronix ignition.

I think I'm answering my own question as I write this, but rather than blow anything up, I want to be sure.

Should that red wire now go directly to my old starter (along with the wire from the battery)

Thanks for any help.
As far as I can make out, I should be able to receive PMs.

Bob

Attached Files
sm.jpg (309.18 KB, 84 downloads)
ute 2.jpg (278.77 KB, 83 downloads)
Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413241 Wed Jun 09 2021 02:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 22,586
H
'Bolter
I'm not sure about the Ute, but a USA stovebolt engine got a different flywheel ring gear as well as a different starter when the conversion to 12 volts was made. 6V flywheels have 139 teeth, and 12V flywheels have 168 teeth. Both starter drives have 9 teeth, but the angular pitch of the teeth, and possibly the diameter of the gear is different. A 12V starter running against a 6V flywheel makes a lot of noise, and both gears wear quickly due to an angular mismatch on the teeth.

I'd recommend going back to your 6V starter. It will work OK on 12 volts, as long as you don't keep the starter engaged for a long time. The choice of generator or alternator for battery charging won't make a difference about which starter to use.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413243 Wed Jun 09 2021 02:48 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,245
B
Sir Searchalot
I thought Utes were New York kids?


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
Hotrod Lincoln #1413259 Wed Jun 09 2021 04:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Hotrod Lincoln. Same engine, same mechanicals, just different body.
I am going back to the original starter. The 12 volt starter I have been using was supplied by Vintage Auto Garage and it's designed to fit the 139 teeth flywheel

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413263 Wed Jun 09 2021 05:04 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,245
B
Sir Searchalot
We have several posts showing guys using a foot start pedal on a 12V solenoid starter. Basically they mount a big azz momentary switch that is operated by the pedal and sends power to the solenoid. Of course, the linkage and spring is not used. But it has the look and feel of the old foot start.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bartamos #1413264 Wed Jun 09 2021 05:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
bartamos I did reply to your post, but I guess it's still waiting for moderation.
Utes, short for Utility, seem to be a bit misunderstood
Unlike a pickup, where the cab and the tub are two separate pieces, a ute is all one piece

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bartamos #1413269 Wed Jun 09 2021 07:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
bartomas, I'm hoping to use my original 6 volt Starter, with no solenoid, but with the 12 volt alternator, coil etc.

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413273 Wed Jun 09 2021 09:24 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,245
B
Sir Searchalot
The Utes joke was from a movie. I know what a ute is, no problem. Not making jokes about utes. I did not send you a PM. I see all your post. No problem. You spelled my user name wrong the last time.

Now for your wiring:
I do not know if AU utes are wired differently than how we wire. I assume you have a negative ground system. I do not know what that component I see on the starter is. So not withstanding that:

1. Provide the coil and resistance specified by Pertronix. Use this [pertronix.com.au] or use the instructions for your model of Pertronix. They may or may not require a bypass/ballast/resistance to be included. The internet and Pertronix instruction sem to vary from model to model regarding the need for a ballast resistor.

2. Wire the Pertronix unit per instruction for your model. Ignitor 1, Ignitor 2, Ignitor 3. See AU link. Instructions for 1, 2 or 3 are upper right of page.
Here is a quote from Pertronix.
" All our Ignitors are designed to run on 12-volts. Some of them you
need to be sure you have the correct coil that will work with the Ignitor.
On the standard Ignitor which can be the hardest to get this combo correct.
We require certain resistance of the coil depending on the amount of
cylinders. Or you will overheat the Ignitor and it will die.
On the Ignitor II you cannot use a coil that has less than 0.6 ohms of
primary ignition system or it will cause the system to shut down or
overheat. The Ignitor III you MUST run a full voltage to coil and you must
use a coil at around 0.32-0.4 ohms. Or the coil will not keep up with the
ignition system. As you can see it is not just as simply as adding the
Ignitor and running 12-volts to any coil.
Original Ignitor needs 3 ohms, if less, use ballast or internally resisted coil"

3. Usually the Pertronix red wire goes to coil pos and the black to coil neg. Then another wire from ignition switch "ON" terminal to coil pos.


4. Your 6V starter wiring is: Battery positive cable to stud on the starter button. Negative battery cable is best to starter mounting bolt or equivalent ground.

5. Alternator wiring: Battery pos to alternator pos stud. Wire from terminal 2 on alternator to same alternator positive stud. Wire from terminal 1 on alternator to one side of charge indicator light bulb. Out the other side of bulb to Ignition ON terminal. If you don't have an indicator bulb, add it.

This does not sound right:

"The alternator I have is a 2 wire, 10Si
White wire to the coil, and red wire to the solenoid.
I got that connected easy enough, and it has been working fine."

Last edited by bartamos; Wed Jun 09 2021 07:48 PM. Reason: Poster has a kit for ignition and satisfied with present charging hookup

Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bartamos #1413285 Wed Jun 09 2021 12:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
ah yes, the problem with text is it's sometimes hard to convey meaning. Sorry about that.

All the mechanicals and electricals are the same as a US or Canadian pickup. It was made in Canada

The component on the starter is a - quote from the workshop manual - "reversing switch is used to reverse the direction of the current each time the engine is started to produce uniform wear on both distributor contact points."

The alternator, coil, Pertronix ignition, key ignition switch, and 12 volt starter motor were all purchased as a kit, and designed to be suited to each other, and suited to a Chevy 216 engine, from Vintage Auto Garage in San Ramon, California. vintageautogarage.com
I installed this kit quite easily and it has been working fine.

This new starter has a built in solenoid. To be honest I'm not even sure what a solenoid does.

But, I now wish to go back to the old 6 volt starter with foot pedal, but keep all the other components.

Do you think I should be able to connect the old 6 volt starter to this system without causing problems?

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413320 Wed Jun 09 2021 05:53 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 4,026
Housekeeping (Moderator) Making a Stovebolt Bed & Paint and Body Shop Forums
Originally Posted by bajintas
This new starter has a built in solenoid. To be honest I'm not even sure what a solenoid does.
There are two kinds of solenoids. One is a device that uses a small current to close a high current switch (starter motor, for instance).
Another that is often used on a starter is a combination device that both pushes the starter gear to engage the flywheel and also close the high current switch to the motor to make it spin.

[on edit] Actually there are more than two kinds. There's also the purely electro-mechanical type that just uses electrical current to push a plunger. For instance a high-idle solenoid on a carburetor that holds the throttle plate slightly open.

Last edited by klhansen; Wed Jun 09 2021 05:58 PM.

Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos [flickr.com]
Busting rust since the mid-60's
Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413323 Wed Jun 09 2021 06:07 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,245
B
Sir Searchalot
I guess you don't need to wire up the reversing switch. Pretty neat though. I'm going to narrow down my advise to exclude everything except your last question. You seem to have the ignition and charging figured out. So the answer is yes regarding the picture you posted of the old starter, and as we said, it can operate on 12V if not stressed with long operation on a hard start situation. Attach the battery pos to it's stud, connect the appropriate linkage and spring as seen in Fig. 42 of the manual.................Done.

What a solenoid does: In the case of your starter(s), it slides the small pinion gear into the flywheel gear and almost simultaneously switches on the starter motor to begin cranking. There is an electromagnetic type where the mechanical pinion slide is done by sucking in a piston like plunger by an energized electromagnet to operate the slide lever and this also makes an electrical contact to spin the starter motor....which spins the truck motor.

The foot start type uses you as the solenoid. You push the pedal which, thru linkage/levers, slides the pinion into place and then presses the button to spin the starter motor....which spins the truck motor.

Both types have a return spring to retract the pinion away from the flywheel when you release the ignition switch/button or lift your foot.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
Sometimes no nonsense makes sense, in a sense.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.
Honk if you're Amish


Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413359 Wed Jun 09 2021 11:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Thanks klhansen, thats a lot less mysterious than I thought.

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bartamos #1413360 Wed Jun 09 2021 11:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Thank you bartamos, that's very helpful

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413389 Thu Jun 10 2021 03:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 22,586
H
'Bolter
The distributor that was used with the polarity reversing switch used a set of points that was insulated from the housing. If the reversing switch is not used, it's necessary to ground the non-moving point to the housing to complete the primary ignition circuit when the points close. That switch was only used for a short time, without a sufficient increase in the life of the points to justify the complexity of the circuit.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
Hotrod Lincoln #1413394 Thu Jun 10 2021 07:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 11
B
'Bolter
Thanks Jerry, but I've swapped the points for an electronic ignition. Good information to know though.

Re: 12 volt alternator with original starter
bajintas #1413436 Thu Jun 10 2021 04:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 22,586
H
'Bolter
If it's a Pertronix, don't discard the original parts. There are two types of Pertronix systems, the ones that have failed, and the ones that are going to fail soon!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
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