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Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1399199 Sat Feb 27 2021 11:53 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,084
B
Sir Searchalot
Good info guys.
I don't believe the cranking of motor with a slightly slow speed starter or weak battery would produce enough oil pressure to reach rocker area. We will be inspecting that. Next test is oiled cylinders.

Will take off covers and spin push rods by hand, check rockers, springs, and watch overall operation and oil flow during crank speed.

The hand crank pointer/rotor test will be repeated. We will reverse direction, as suggested, to observe slop.

It would be nice if we detect faster speed crank after oiling cylinders by hand. It would be nice to see at least 4 cylinders go to 100+ psi.

Next opportunity for OP is Mon-Tues

I have just asked him if he ever changed oil. If he has a cartridge oil filter or spin on. If he changed cartridge.

EDIT: Oil not change for a long long time. Filter not changed. Unknown if that's 33 years or not. A sitting motor will form condensation during weather cycles and have dripping water inside valve covers and crankcase. This can turn into a living environment for "swamp thing". May not pump thru unchanged filter and into motor....or may pump some sort of unknown chemically altered fluid into motor and "stick" it up and dry it up. In addition, may have allowed washing during the test drives. A series of eventual loss of compression.
I want to hand flush all of the valve train and let it drain into pan, then drain pan. Change filter, add 5 qts thin oil by pouring over valve train and do the oil squirt compression test. What should top of motor be hand flushed with? Gas, Mystery oil, kerosene...... keeping in mind is will be drained out. Don't want it to circulate anyway.
Don't want to add more bad 33 year old oil to the situation. Just trying to give the oil-in-cylinder compression test the best chance, as this may be the last chance, before teardown.
My fantasy is we get enough compression to start, oil circulates and fees up motor, then change oil a few times and "whalla", it's fixed. aye? No damage. I am hanging on to that it has spark, is timed and getting gas.

One of us is gummed up and washed out........me or the motor.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.


Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1399251 Sun Feb 28 2021 05:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 111
X
'Bolter
Based on what you have described, a teardown, thorough cleaning and evaluation of the internal components is the only truly reliable solution. The possibly 33 year old oil has, in all likelihood, solidified enough sludge in the bottom of the oil pan to at least partially clog the oil pump pickup screen and possibly the oil pump itself. The oil that is still liquid has been mixed with condensed water and has been circulated (however weakly) through the engine so the crank, rod and cam bearings will need replacing. The cylinder walls, at the very least, will need to be honed, and may need to be bored out. The piston rings will need replacing if honed and the pistons and rings if the cylinders are bored out. The rods and wrist pins should be evaluated. The lifters will need replacing and their block bores honed, and replacing the cam would be a good idea. New oil pump. All engine block oil passages, after removing the threaded pugs at their ends, need to be cleaned out with a gun cleaning rod with a copper or brass brush (my personal choice is .22 caliber). All freeze plugs should be replaced.The crank will have to be evaluated, including measurement, to see if it is reusable. The oil return passages in the heads will have to be cleared. By rights the stripped block should be hot tanked at a local machine shop and checked for any cracks that may not be visible to the naked eye. No mention has been made about the cooling system, but if the oil is that old, chances are the 33 year old coolant lost its effectiveness long ago and may have frozen in the block at some point, cracking it. Those cracks will widen as the engine warms and mix more contamination into the oil from coolant passages as well as possibly causing low compression and / or hydro-locking of the cylinders after the engine is shut off.

The cleaning process with such old oil and solidified sludge is not just a matter of clearing passages, but also insuring that there isn't any sludge left in recesses that are not easily visible. The new oil in a newly rebuilt engine (or any engine for that matter) can soften old sludge to the point that it will break away from the surface it was adhered to and travel through the engine, contaminating the new oil on the way and possibly causing new blockages depending on where it gets caught in the engine.

I really don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but in my opinion, any attempt of a less thorough repair at this point is a roll of the dice. Even if it were to run, however poorly, it won't be reliable and at some point, not so very far in the future, will fail, and in all likelihood will not be repairable.



Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1399253 Sun Feb 28 2021 05:56 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,084
B
Sir Searchalot
The motor is absolutely not worth it. Tearing down for the experience, or to try and identify the issue, would be entertaining. A good running 305 V6 can be had for $200-$500. They are a 100% boat anchor for "performance" and max out at about 3400 rpm. Good torque, well built. If I had this situation and I would buy another or drop in a SBC or BBC. The motor is just rare enough, and has a following, to where the parts are worth money. Pistons, rings, some of the valve train, gears, timing chain, and other parts are either expensive or a bit hard to find for a rebuild. The nostalgia factor of being his Dad's truck, bought new, may have an effect. This is why I'm trying so hard, and seem so silly, to find a way to get it going without teardown. I do realize everyone is probably right and a teardown is already past due. I will report back in a week or two. I am familiar with these motors and they are an engineering marvel. They have a very very strong oiling and water circulation design. Very strong metallurgy. Could withstand the lack of oil and washing.

Motor designed for 200,000 miles back in 1959 after GMC told to cease and desist in selling trucks with Pontiac V8's with a GMC sticker on valve covers.

First GMC V6:
HIGH OUTPUT OIL PUMP:
capable of pumping 14 gallons of oil per minute, provides extra circulation at all engine speeds
. . . extra protection and well oiled surfaces on all vital moving parts. Engine is lubricated as
soon as it's started. Cam lobes dip into a built-in reservoir of oil as the camshaft rotates,
preventing cam and valve scuffing - a major reason why this engine gives long, dependable service.

135 GALLONS OF WATER:
(at 3400 r.p.m.) Are pumped through this engine every minute. With thermostat open, only half the
water goes to the radiator, the other half returns to the pump through a by-pass. This results in
excellent cooling ability. There is less than four degrees variation in water temperature throughout
the engine. This checks the possibility of hot spots. Here's cooling efficiency that is not matched
by any other comparable size engine. Life of pistons, valves, valve guides and spark plugs in much
greater, and the possibility of head-cracking is held safely in check . . . further proof of the
durability and long life that is built into this engine.

FULLY-MATCHED COMBUSTION CHAMBERS Smooth, precision-machined combustion
chamber minimizes carbon deposits, hot spots & pre-ignition. & there is uniform combustion in all 6
cylinders for smoothest engine operation. 6 equally-spaced head bolts surround each cylinder to reduce
bore distortion, & guarantee gasket sealing for long engine service.

RELIABLE TIMING LINKAGE V-6 roller timing chains are double-strand, for
double durability.

FREE-BREATHING INTAKE VALVES Forged from steels with high resistance to warping,
pitting, & wear, extra-large intake valves let the V-6 breath freely, for higher volumetric efficiency.

FREE-VENTING EXHAUST VALVES Compared with other engines of equal displacement,
V-6's have the largest exhaust valves of all -- to keep back pressure low, efficiency high.

HARD FACES & INSERTS Tough, Silchrome XB-steel exhaust valves, hard-faced
with Ni-Chrome

Spark plugs are on the inside at top of motor away from exhaust manifolds. Long reach plugs provide greater heat sinking. Plug wires stay on top of motor.

"SCUFFPROOFING"DIP Before pressure lubrication takes over on engine starts,
V-6 cam lobes dip into a special oil reservoir. No "dry scuffing" mare cam or valve-lifter faces!

POSITIVE VALVE ROTATION A positive ratchet action rotates every valve on each cycle.
Contact surfaces stay clean for positive seating. Standard, 305C & up

M400 CONNECTING ROD BEARINGS Big, long-life M400 bearings are used in V-6
connecting rods. Low-friction tin & aluminum alloys are backed with a layer of steel for extra strength.

EXTRA-LARGE MAIN BEARINGS Huge, M400 main bearings provide solid support for
the crankshaft, & resist wear by spreading the load over extra square inches of bearing area.

PRECISION-FITTED PISTONS In every V-6 the big, deep-skirt aluminum pistons are
weight-matched, & precision-fitted to the bores, a cast-in steel band controls heat expansion.

SHORT, RIGID CAMSHAFT Extra-wide camshaft lobes are flame hardened & phosphate
coated to resist wear. Four big bearings carry the shaft for precise valve operation.


RUGGED CONNECTING RODS Piston power flows smoothly to the crankshaft through
big, forged-steel, I-beam connecting rods -- all balanced to within the weight of a cigarette!

SHORT, STIFF CRANKSHAFT This husky crankshaft helps conserve engine power &
extends bearing life, because it has the strength & balance to minimize deflection & vibration.

RIGID, RUGGED BLOCK This block has strength to spare for resisting internal strain --
strength from it's super-tough iron alloy, staggered cylinders & short, deep-skirt design.

M400 is Monel. 80,000-90,000 PSI tensile. High corrosion resistance.

How's this for a demonstration? Spinning motor from the rear.

Attached Files
BBV6.jpg (73.83 KB, 154 downloads)

Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.


Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1399300 Sun Feb 28 2021 03:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,244
G
'Bolter
Nice write up. Makes it sound great to say da least. I like em alot. Hope he gets it going. When i said "kid" i was using da term loosely. Not any disrespect intended.

Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1399359 Sun Feb 28 2021 09:17 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,084
B
Sir Searchalot
thumbs_up


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.


Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1402570 Mon Mar 22 2021 11:11 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,084
B
Sir Searchalot
Looks like she may have slipped timing. I really think that is the best of all evils. The fix is cumbersome with big heavy casting to remove but it's all in front and does not disturb any complicated components or head. A mechanic came over and they say that the rotor does not return to No. 1 every time. Like we thought we thought it did. He is coming back to check again and do a compression test.
Since it's hard for me to believe a low mileage 305 V6 has a stretched chain or broken gear, I guess it can be bad dizzy gear.


Watch out for careful drivers!!!
I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.
You can't teach a new dog old tricks.


Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1402571 Mon Mar 22 2021 11:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,672
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
thumbs_up


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)
‘65 Chevy Biscayne 4dr 230 I-6 one owner (I’m #2) “Emily”
‘39 Dodge Businessmans Coupe “Clarence”



"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop!
USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)

Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1405435 Sat Apr 10 2021 04:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 49
J
Jimmy66 Offline OP
'Bolter
Hey everyone- I wanted to let y’all know, I towed the truck to a reputable local shop that specializes in older vehicles, and restorations.
I told them the whole story, and the owner had a hunch. He pulled the valve covers and we found bent push rods, some disconnected. Only one cylinder with a straight rod and compression.

It appears that when I got the truck running, and drove it for a couple days, I stirred up the separated gas sediment in the bottom of the tank, which acted like glue and locked things up. That was last September, and I’ve been chasing my tail since then.
Huge thanks to Bartamos for going above and beyond to help me, and thanks to all of you for help and insights. The truck will be fixed, and I will continue to learn.
Thanks y’all- Jimmy


Jimmy Deveney
‘66 GMC 3/4 ton pick up
4 speed manual
305E V6
Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1405450 Sat Apr 10 2021 12:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,740
P
AD Addict
Originally Posted by Jimmy66
Huge thanks to Bartamos for going above and beyond to help me, and thanks to all of you for help and insights. The truck will be fixed, and I will continue to learn.
Thanks y’all- Jimmy

Glad to hear you found the problem and your going to fix it! nanner

Bartamos, did you send Jimmy the bill for your opinions? @ .02 cents x 62 opinions = $1.24 as I see it. LOL!


Phil

1952 Chevrolet 3100
Project Journals
‘59 235 & hydraulic lifters
“Three on the Tree” & 4:11 torque tube
12v w/ Alternator
Re: Ignition problems- 305E V6
Jimmy66 #1405451 Sat Apr 10 2021 12:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,672
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
Thanks for the update. Unfortunately you found the common problem with trying to start a long dormant engine. Our Tech Tip covers the proper procedure but hindsight is always 20/20. Good to hear she will live to run another day.


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)
‘65 Chevy Biscayne 4dr 230 I-6 one owner (I’m #2) “Emily”
‘39 Dodge Businessmans Coupe “Clarence”



"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop!
USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)

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