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Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385821 Wed Nov 25 2020 05:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 21,811
H
Boltergeist
Yes, they're available in all sorts of shoulder lengths and thread sizes on Ebay. For chucking reamers to get the holes round and the right size, try Victor Machinery Co. (www.victornet.com [victornet.com]). On a lot of the standard shoulder bolt sizes, they have reamers .001" undersize, which will result in a very tight interference fit, almost a press fit. Once a shoulder bolt is installed that way, it's almost a solid as a hot riveted joint. It also helps to grind a slight taper on the end of the shoulder to help force its way into the tight hole.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Hotrod Lincoln #1385822 Wed Nov 25 2020 05:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 65
C
Cozsum Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Hi Jerry,

Thanks, in your opinion how big of a shoulder is needed. What length and does a nut screw on to the back side. Sorry for the silly questions, Ive never used one of these bolts before. How are they different than a bolt with a shoulder on it.

Thanks

Mark

Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385826 Wed Nov 25 2020 06:23 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,407
Housekeeping (Moderator) Making a Stovebolt Bed & Paint and Body Shop Forums
I agree with Jerry that if you can't rivet an attachment, a tight fitting shoulder bolt would be next best. However, I disagree that a standard bolt tightened to the proper torque would loosen up and make the holes eggshaped. The clamping force of the three or four bolts for a shock mount will keep it in place for the life of the truck.
The shoulder on a shoulder bolt will need to be just shorter than the combined thickness of the frame and the attachment so that the nut, when screwed on will clamp the two together tightly. I think the complication of getting the right shoulder length and reaming the hole for a tight fit makes their use out of the range of the typical DIY guy. Of course Jerry has the skill and equipment to use them.


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos [flickr.com]
Busting rust since the mid-60's
Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385871 Wed Nov 25 2020 04:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 21,811
H
Boltergeist
I usually let the shoulder bridge the distance completely, and use a thick flat washer under the nut to allow it to be tightened properly. Anybody who has any experience building dirt track race cars will agree with me about it being impossible for bolts to hold pieces rigidly in place under the compression/rebound action of a shock absorber. Amy slack whatsoever is going to result in motion between the parts on even a moderately rough road surface. Hitting a big bump at highway speed is going to make something in the suspension system move, bend, or break. The rule of thumb on the track was "Make it three times as strong as you think it needs to be, and don't be too surprised when it breaks!"
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385909 Wed Nov 25 2020 09:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,698
C
Shop Shark
With 5/8" and 3/4 bolt holes I usually use flange bolts. However, for a 3/8" hole I have been using crossmember bolts for over 40 years.

https://www.imperialsupplies.com/item/0009790

This has been the standard fix for semi trailer cross member to bottom rail repairs. Most trailer manufacturers use buck rivets or Huck bolts to attach the floor cross members to the bottom rail. Salted roads cause things to swell and rivets and Huck bolts break. I have a dozen dry vans in drop and hook service. I have used hundreds of these bolts and have never had one to break and they are simple to install. If the hole is a little too big or out of round it doesn't make any difference. Our floors stand up to a beating with forklifts with solid tires. A pickup frame will never take this kind of beating. I buy them by the box of 100. If you are going steel to steel you don't need the nylon washer. That is for steel to aluminum to prevent electrlysis.

Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385915 Wed Nov 25 2020 10:25 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,407
Housekeeping (Moderator) Making a Stovebolt Bed & Paint and Body Shop Forums
I'm giving the squint-eye to the nylon washer. It would tend to make things loosen up. To truly isolate steel and aluminum, you'd need more than just a single nylon washer. You'd also need a sleeve to isolate the bolt. ohwell


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos [flickr.com]
Busting rust since the mid-60's
Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385921 Wed Nov 25 2020 11:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 21,811
H
Boltergeist
I use a hard steel grade 8 washer with a big enough inside diameter for the shoulder section to pass through, and thick enough to let the nut tighten without bottoming out on the shoulder. The washer allows the proper clamping force to be applied, and the very snug fit in the hole positively prevents any relative motion between the pieces.

"One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!" Kevin simply refuses to be swayed in his insistence on doing thing his way.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
Cozsum #1385927 Wed Nov 25 2020 11:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,698
C
Shop Shark
Trailer companies have been using these bolts for almost 50 years. Fruehauf had them exclusive during the '70s. Now everyone has them. Imperial Inc., from whom I buy fasteners is a subsidiary of WW Grainger, has been around along as I have. It is a tried and proven product. In the 40 something years I have been using these bolts I have never had a bolt come loose because of failure of the nylon washer. Back in the '70s Strick trailers used a stainless steel washer to Isolate the bolt head from aluminum. After a few years of exposure tp salted roads, the stainless steel washer split leaving about .040 gap and it wasn't long after that the bolt broke. As far as isolating the bolt from the aluminum bottom rail, the bolt fits tight enough that salt spray does not get between the bolt and the aluminum. We have disassembled some of these bolts after years of service to do other repairs to trailers. And the bolts came out with no evidence of the white powdery electrolysis. In fact it was tempting to reuse the bolts. I can pull 3/8 Huck bolts and I can buck rivets 3/8 and larger. But I prefer these bolts over Hucks or rivets. I wonder of if you are criticizing a tried and proven product from experience for from theory.

Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
crenwelge #1385932 Wed Nov 25 2020 11:57 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,407
Housekeeping (Moderator) Making a Stovebolt Bed & Paint and Body Shop Forums
Originally Posted by crenwelge
I wonder of if you are criticizing a tried and proven product from experience for from theory.
I can't claim any experienced with these, but just saying that nylon washers don't have the compressive strength of steel or even aluminum (that's a fact, not theory), and I have seen plastic components "ooze" out from the connection.

Jerry, I'm not doubting that dirt track racing is extremely hard on suspension components, but I don't think the typical Stovebolt is going to get that kind of abuse.

Last edited by klhansen; Wed Nov 25 2020 11:57 PM.

Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos [flickr.com]
Busting rust since the mid-60's
Re: Replacing Rivets for bolts
klhansen #1385982 Thu Nov 26 2020 05:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,698
C
Shop Shark
I don't claim to be any kind of expert in plastics. My college degree is a BBA in accounting and pre law. But I have owned trucks since 1964 and have used these type of bolts since they hit the market in the '70s and I have many years of real world experience with these bolts and the washers that I call plastic. They do not compress nor do they "ooze'" out. I have tried so plastic suspension bushings that are supposed to last a lifetime. But they were a total disaster. The old fashioned rubber dry bolt bushings run a half a million miles or better on my equipment.

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