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Comediann #1378974 Wed Sep 30 2020 10:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 591
L
'Bolter
I have to echo Paul's comments, Comediann. Jerry lives and breaths the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy and he's apt to administer his very good advice with a ruler across the knuckles delivery to the hot rod guys (like me). It's not personal, I assure you. Hang around. No site on the Intarweb except the one devoted to old Jimmy trucks has more information about your engine than this one.

Last edited by LAROKE; Wed Sep 30 2020 10:08 AM.

Larry Kephart
1937 Chevy Utility Express (Deerslayer)
1955 1st 3100 Chevy (BillyBob)
2017 Cadillac ATS-V (Elvira)
Boca Raton, Florida
e-mail: webmaster@laroke.com

http://www.laroke.com/larryk4674/1998/billybob.htm
Comediann #1379017 Wed Sep 30 2020 05:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,598
Red dot, center of chest ...
Originally Posted by Comediann
http://www.inliners.org/tech/full_flo_GMC.html

This is all I was referencing and trying to have a simple conversation about. I did state that my knowledge was limited on this topic

And we're having that conversation. But it's been sidetracked (ever so slightly) because you took offense to Jerry's choice of words. HIs advice is rock solid. What he's saying to you is that sometimes, modifications tend to make things worse, not better. Some pretty intelligent people designed the engines that we deal with, and it's always wise to consider that they might have known what they were doing, even back in those olden days.

My 235 has been modified to use a spin-on filter, but that's because it had no filter at all when it came from the factory. Some filtering is clearly better than none. But, as Jerry points out, you already have a very good filtering system on your engine. Modifying it for a spin-on filter would make it less effective. That's what Jerry's trying to tell you.

Don't take offense. Take it under advisement. That article you referenced is one man's opinion, and it's quite dated. Now you can balance it against Jerry's, and he has a wealth of experience.


Paul Schmehl CI 6
geek@stovebolt.com
Stovebolt Staff: Geek
Comediann #1379034 Wed Sep 30 2020 06:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 26
C
'Bolter
Thx

Comediann #1379044 Wed Sep 30 2020 07:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 24,968
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
The article in the link refers to converting an older engine set up for bypass oil filtration to full flow, which has already been done by the factory on later model GMC engines such as the 270's and 302's made from the mid-1950's and later. I have a complete GMC full flow filter system stashed away somewhere, and it has a huge filter canister and lines about 5/8" in diameter. If I choose to use it as a primary filter on an engine build at sometime in the future, I will still add a bypass filter with extremely fine weave media as a backup. One such filter is the "Frantz" design which uses a roll of industrial-strength toilet paper as a filter ("John Wayne" paper- - - -rough and tough, and won't take "stuff" off of anyone!) It does a great job of filtering oil, but it can't flow enough volume to keep an engine supplied. Hence, the need for a full flow filter to catch the rocks, marbles, and bowling balls!

30+ years of teaching high school auto mechanics to a bunch of ghetto gangbangers who knew a lot about stealing cars, and virtually nothing about fixing them has a tendency to make me speak very directly when myths about mechanical stuff get repeated. Some of those hardcore misfits are making a good, honest living using the skills I was able to pass on to them. Others are graduates of the River Bend school of advanced thuggery. River Bend is the Tennessee State Prison facility near Nashville. Keeping in touch with members of both groups can have advantages at times.
Jerry


"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
Kris Kristofferson

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.
Ernest Hemingway

WAG MORE- - - - - -BARK LESS!
Hotrod Lincoln #1379063 Wed Sep 30 2020 11:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 26
C
'Bolter
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
The article in the link refers to converting an older engine set up for bypass oil filtration to full flow, which has already been done by the factory on later model GMC engines such as the 270's and 302's made from the mid-1950's and later. I have a complete GMC full flow filter system stashed away somewhere, and it has a huge filter canister and lines about 5/8" in diameter. If I choose to use it as a primary filter on an engine build at sometime in the future, I will still add a bypass filter with extremely fine weave media as a backup. One such filter is the "Frantz" design which uses a roll of industrial-strength toilet paper as a filter ("John Wayne" paper- - - -rough and tough, and won't take "stuff" off of anyone!) It does a great job of filtering oil, but it can't flow enough volume to keep an engine supplied. Hence, the need for a full flow filter to catch the rocks, marbles, and bowling balls!

30+ years of teaching high school auto mechanics to a bunch of ghetto gangbangers who knew a lot about stealing cars, and virtually nothing about fixing them has a tendency to make me speak very directly when myths about mechanical stuff get repeated. Some of those hardcore misfits are making a good, honest living using the skills I was able to pass on to them. Others are graduates of the River Bend school of advanced thuggery. River Bend is the Tennessee State Prison facility near Nashville. Keeping in touch with members of both groups can have advantages at times.
Jerry

I don't mind directness as long as it comes with all the information this post does, I really just want to learn from everyone here. I'm a big research guy and like facts before I dive into things. Its good to know I don't have to modify this, I want to keep it looking as original as I can while improving anywhere I can. Now this came out of a bus so just need to find the appropriate replacement filter. Also after your post I did research and learned the true inefficiency that model spin on have, something i never took into consideration as thats only things I have really had to deal with in my more modern engine experiences.

Last edited by Comediann; Wed Sep 30 2020 11:18 PM.
Comediann #1379111 Thu Oct 01 2020 04:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 24,968
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
I had a long post written, and hit a wrong key and erased it. When I owned a Diesel repair shop and road service in central California back in the late 1970's, I was a distributor for the Frantz oil filter system sized to fit a LuberFiner 750 oil filter canister. The tissue paper filter element for that one was about 8" in diameter and over a foot tall, and the canister held about 2 gallons of oil. The Cummins and Detroit engines it was designed for usually held 10-15 gallons of oil, depending on the engine application. We would change filter elements every 10,000 miles and simply add enough oil to replace the volume lost during a filter change. Some of those engines had over 100K miles on the oil, and laboratory analysis of samples taken during filter changes indicated no loss of lubrication capability or other deterioration of the oil. Saving 8-10 gallons of oil per change was a major advantage of running the very efficient bypass filter. The engines were also equipped with a regular full flow filter, but it was only changed about once a year because there were virtually no large contaminants to filter out. The oil got black, like all diesel engine oils do since the sooty carbon is almost impossible to remove due to its extremely fine particle size, but the filter media kept the oil performing like new under operating conditions a gasoline engine virtually never sees. Good luck on your project!
Jerry


"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
Kris Kristofferson

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.
Ernest Hemingway

WAG MORE- - - - - -BARK LESS!
Comediann #1379134 Thu Oct 01 2020 01:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 779
T
Bondo Artiste
"It's very obvious you've never been inside a GMC engine. It's already got full pressure oiling, a huge oil pump that flows far more oil than a stovebolt Chevy, full flow oil filter, and aluminum pistons- - - -they were all built that way."

Jerry, I do have a comment about your previous post.


I have never seen a GMC engine of that era that came with full flow oil filter filtration, only bypass from the Factory.


Phillip
1927 Chevy Capital 1 Ton truck - basket case
1941 Chevy Suburban - Parts only
1949 GMC Suburban - 10 year project
1945 GMC half ton truck - Driver
1946 Chevy COE - Might restore one day...
1959 GMC Half ton long bed NAPCO

https://photos.google.com/u/1/albums
TrknGMC #1379217 Fri Oct 02 2020 02:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 28
G
'Bolter
Install the spin on filter and keep the bypass filter. The best of both.
Thats what I did on the 270 installed in my 40 Gmc


just retired and finally making headway on my project truck. 1940 GMC AC152.
Comediann #1380923 Fri Oct 16 2020 12:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 26
C
'Bolter
Tearing into the motor and I noticed even though this came from a 1959 bus the engine is older, based on block casting numbers 52-54. Also, the head casting number, 2188477, doesn't match any of the casting numbers on the oldgmctrucks forum. Seems this engine has a story to tell.

Last edited by Comediann; Fri Oct 16 2020 12:29 AM.
Comediann #1380936 Fri Oct 16 2020 01:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,166
D
'Bolter
The late 12 Port Charlie Baker was a pretty good mechanic and craftsman. He was in a wheelchair most of his life but managed to become a lifelong devotee of old iron and speed equipment. He made patterns for casting aluminum side plates, valve covers, timing covers, 12 port GMC heads, all kinds of things. His business was called vintage design and development and he was one of the founders of inliners international. He was a pretty good machinist. In fact, Charlie machined up the 302 rods I run in one of my 261 chevy motors and I have one of the few offy knock off side covers he made for the 235/261 chevys. So he was not just some crack pot expressing an unfounded opinion.

I am not terribly versed on gmc motors. But this same conversion can be done to a 235/261 bypass motors. That being said, I don’t know which GMC blocks or year motors were full flow filters or bypass filters. His tech tip was designed to take a bypass filter motor, which bleeds off a little oil from the main galley, ran it through some relatively small lines to a canister filter, filtered this dribble of oil, and then the clean oil was dumped directly to the pan where it was instantly diluted with dirty oil, and change it to a full flow system where all of the oil was pulled from the galley, filtered through a full flow, easily obtained, spin on oil filter, which then redirected that clean filtered oil directly back into the galley, as opposed to the pan, supplying nice clean oil to the bearings and the rest of the motor.

While there are opinions on both side as to the propriety of this modification, it is still a viable method to convert a motor from a bypass filter motor to a full flow filter. And frankly, there is a third option. Don’t convert and don’t run a filter. My 235/261 motors are all heavily modified and I don’t run a filter at all. I just change the oil frequently primarily because I don’t get a lot of miles on my vintage vehicles in the course of a year. And make no mistake, I am hard on my motors. Is one option better then any other, I don’t know, but like I said lots of opinions.

Roll your sleeves up and dig in. That 302 motor is one really great motor and truth be told, it responds to all manner of hot rodding. You still see some of them being run at Bonneville. If you don’t want a stock 302 motor, then don’t build one. Build what you want. Register for the inliners international bulletin board and ask your questions. There a still quite a few very knowledgeable 302 guys there if you need or want a second opinion.


Mike
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