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Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334091 Sun Nov 17 2019 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,251
H
Hotrod Lincoln Online
Boltergeist
Do you have a battery load tester capable of putting a 300 amp load or more on the battery? When I'm diagnosing a starter I monitor the battery terminal voltage while the engine is cranking, and then load the battery to the same voltage and measure the amperage draw. A 6 volt starter in good condition should crank the engine at normal speed with approximately a 200-250 amp current draw. HAS ANYONE DONE A LOAD TEST ON THE "NEW" BATTERY?

Since most people don't have a heavy current capacity carbon pile load tester, cranking voltage is the only test that might give a clue about the condition of the starter. The battery terminals shouldn't drop below about 4.5 volts during cranking unless there's a problem with the starter, or the engine is almost seized up for some reason. (Rusty cylinder walls, etc.) Try spinning the engine with the spark plugs removed to see what speed you can get that way.

Have you done the 15 second cranking test with the ignition disabled like I suggested? Sometimes I think I'm shouting down an empty well because people tend to ignore my advice and make wild-donkey guesses. Maybe 60 years' experience at diagnosing electrical systems doesn't count!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeBb-gTjWKA

Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334116 Sun Nov 17 2019 07:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 42
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
next I am doing the starter test with ignition off. thanks.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334230 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 42
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I just tried the ignition off test and cranking with ignition off, fully charged battery. voltag on battery was 5.6 volts. could is still be the starter???


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334236 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,251
H
Hotrod Lincoln Online
Boltergeist
OK- - - -now we're making some progress. That's way too HIGH a voltage reading for a starter that's under cranking load. Was the cranking speed normal, or slow? If the cranking was slow, there's a high resistance circuit inside the starter. Remove the starter and dismantle it. The first thing to check is the mechanical push button that the foot pedal linkage operates. It's attached to the starter housing with two screws. There's a big copper contact at the stud where the battery + cable attaches, and another one that connects to the field coils and armature brushes. The push button connects these two contacts with a big copper washer. Burned contacts there can cause low current draw, or there could be loose or burned connections inside the starter.

Unless you find problems with the bolt-on switch, it's probably time to rebuild or replace the starter. Be sure to get a 6 Volt starter if you replace it, since there's a gear drive and flywheel tooth difference in 6 and 12 volt units. There's at least a possibility you've got a 12 volt starter installed. The quickest way to tell the difference is to measure the diameter of the armature shaft- - - - -12 volt starters have a 1/2" diameter shaft- - - -6V armatures measure 5/8". If there's a Delco ID label on the starter, a 6V label will have black lettering. 12V labels are red.

If you've got a 12 volt starter, the next thing to check is the number of teeth on the flywheel. 6V flywheels have 139 teeth. 12V flywheel ring gears have 168 teeth. a 6V starter WILL NOT work on a 168 tooth flywheel- - - - -there will be lots of noise, and rapid wear and/or breakage of teeth on both the flywheel and the starter drive.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334237 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,861
Justhorsenround Offline
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
Get some help and try push starting it. If it starts then I would replace the starter. Convert to 12 volts, read the Tech Tips on how to do it. Simple and if you use the 6 volt starter (12 volts won’t hurt it) it will spin plenty fast to start the engine. jmo


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)


"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line" and lock up those on the wrong side of that line.

Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334239 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,144
Rusty Rod Offline
Moderator - The Electrical Bay and Rocky Mountain Bolters
Hello MontanaLee. How fast was the engine turning over on your last test?

I really don't have any new advice for you. BUT, I would suggest that you write each recommendation given to you on a piece of paper (Particularly Mr. Lincolns). then write what you did to correct that problem. Then what was the result. Kind of like a checklist... this is to ensure that you didn't miss a step.

How cold is it when you are trying to start the truck? Is the truck outside or inside? do you have the capability to warm up the engine before you try to start it? (taking care to not burn down your garage!!!!)


Another quality post.


Real Trucks Rattle

HELP! The Paranoids are after me!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334242 Mon Nov 18 2019 07:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,875
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
If you want a 6v system (for old times sake, etc), do not give up and switch to 12v (just to get/have/obtain dependable starting).

A properly set-up/maintained 6v system will start dependably every time.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334255 Mon Nov 18 2019 10:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 42
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
update for the 17th-

on top of new 1/0 cable to the starter from the battery. I just now replaced the starter with one form NAPA ( 6 volt)
new Optima battery
I have spark
I have fuel

still turns over slowly and does not start

suggestions???

new condenser?
new points?
new rotor?
new coil?


am I wide open.
]thanks for having in there with me


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334261 Mon Nov 18 2019 10:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,875
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
Run a 1/0 cable (or heavy ground strap) from the battery to a starter mounting bolt (or, run a temporary heavy starter-cable from the battery to a starter bolt).


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: tclederman] #1334267 Mon Nov 18 2019 10:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 42
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I ran a new 1/0 cable from the new optima battery to the new starter ( lower mountain bolt) . also ran a 1/0 fabric covered cable from positive terminal on new battery to new starter.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
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