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235 won't start #1333655 Wed Nov 13 2019 09:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
the truck was running ok, started a little tough, but started. I replaced the generator with a 6 volt alternator, and it rear well too. I went to start if after being idle of few days, and. would not start. I replaced the battery with an Optima 6 volt, put on a 1/0. original cable and still won't start. I check and coil has power, I seem to have spark, the fuel filter l looks to have plenty of fuel, battery is fully charged- I am stumped. Starter is a little slows but better with a new cable adn battery- could it. be the starter??

thanks an any advice.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333663 Wed Nov 13 2019 10:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 488
B
bluesman Offline
Shop Shark
Will it crank but not start? Or will it not crank? Two different situations. I had problems with my rebuilt 235, spark but no run, turned out to be a bad condenser (after trying everything else). I gave a spark but not enough to start. Check it out, it's a really cheap and easy fix.

Tim


I am currently digging back in to a 1953 3800 (one ton) with a nine foot bed. I've owned it since 1979, and drove it until 1982 (or so). My wife got me involved in restoring it back in 2002, got the body removed and the frame redone, then things came up. Now I am retired and starting again. If anyone is interested I have photos on Imagur ( https://timwhiteblues.imgur.com/ ). I live way back in the woods in the Ozarks on 40 acres at the end of a 2 1/2 mile private road.

Tim
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333667 Wed Nov 13 2019 10:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
this has been double-posted - one (here) location is enough

What size are your ground cables/straps (1/0 (0) or 2/0 (00) are good)?

Make sure your ground strap/cables connection points are good:
- battery to frame
- frame to clutch housing (I connect this one to a starter mounting bolt).

Cover all shiney/cleaned connection points with copper-impregnated anti-seize "grease" (sold in most auto-parts-stores in tubes or small jars.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333678 Wed Nov 13 2019 11:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
“Starter is a little slows but better with a new cable adn battery- could it. be the starter??”

Check out your battery cable-sizes first — these have to be good no matter what other things might need to be checked-out/tended-to?

And, they might be your problem/problems.

Do the easy and necessary checks first.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333731 Thu Nov 14 2019 12:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 913
M
moparguy Offline
Shop Shark
Lee, just a couple thoughts to add to the good advice above. I see you're in a part of the country where the temp's can get a bit "nippy". Is the truck in a heated shop when you're trying to start it? If not, a 6v system has to be in Good condition to start if temps are in the teens (or colder). Everything has to be pretty much perfect for it to fire off and run. I worked through several winters in North Dakota and when we'd get a warmup from -30 or so it almost felt like summer when the thermometer hit 10 above.

I've never ran a Optima 6 volt battery but I seem to recall they require a special charging technique when really ran down. I'd put a charger on it and make sure it's fully charged. Of course a voltmeter will tell the story too.

Last of all, if the above fails to get it started, I'd give it a whiff of starting fluid. Doesn't take a lot and too much can cause damage. Once running, check timing, and go on a test drive to see if any rough running gremlins pop up and let the tuning proceed.

Good Luck,
RonR


1951 3600 with Clark flatbed, T5, 4.10 rear
1970 340 Duster
1990 5.0 V8 Miata (1990 Mustang Gt Drivetrain)
1951 Farmall Super A



Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333739 Thu Nov 14 2019 01:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 913
M
moparguy Offline
Shop Shark
Lee, check here.


1951 3600 with Clark flatbed, T5, 4.10 rear
1970 340 Duster
1990 5.0 V8 Miata (1990 Mustang Gt Drivetrain)
1951 Farmall Super A



Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333742 Thu Nov 14 2019 01:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
"I've never ran a Optima 6 volt battery but I seem to recall they require a special charging technique when really ran down. I'd put a charger on it and make sure it's fully charged."

If an Optima battery has been run down, an easy recommended technique is:
- connect a 6V lead-acid battery in parallel
- connect the 6v charger ti gte Optima battery
- if it is an automatic charge, charge until done/fully-charged

Here is Optima Tech Tip(s) on: "HOW TO RESUSCITATE A DEEPLY DISCHARGED AGM BATTERY"


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333806 Thu Nov 14 2019 09:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
update

1. new Optima battery
2. now 1/0 positive cable
3.good ground from battery to frame and starter to block
4. starter hardly turns over and then turns over ok for a bit, but slow, and then does not turn over.
5. fuel filter bowl is 1/2 full - which is ok
6.i have spark- if the condenser is bad will I have spark? I changed the condenser less than month ago
7. my next step is to pull the starter- I have a replacement I got at NAPA, it this the right step ??????


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333810 Thu Nov 14 2019 10:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
What's the cranking speed like with the ignition turned off? A slow-turning starter draws a huge amount of current due to not enough "counter-EMF" being induced in the starter windings. That, in turn, drops the battery terminal voltage low enough that the ignition system can't produce a hot enough spark to fire the plugs, even if a tiny spark is visible while cranking. A properly-charged battery should be able to crank the engine for at least 15 seconds with the ignition disabled without the voltage at the battery posts dropping below 4.5 volts.

Virtually all "slow crank" complaints with a 6 volt system are the result of loose or dirty connections, and/or too-small cables. There's no such thing as having too big a battery cable on a 6V system. Run the ground cable all the way to the starter housing- - - - -the "ground strap to the frame with a second conductor to the starter" is a disaster waiting to happen.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1333816 Thu Nov 14 2019 11:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I will test it tomorrow - thanks.

it ran ok when the weather was warmer but when the temperature when down, the starting trouble started, even though I replaced the battery and hot cable ( Optima adn 1/0 cable).


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1333818 Thu Nov 14 2019 11:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
what size ground cable?


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333819 Fri Nov 15 2019 12:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
At least a #1 or #0. Some people recommend 00, but they're a little difficult to get a good crimp on the terminals on the ends. I make mine from arc welder cable which has hundreds of strands of very fine wire and is very flexible. I've also got a swaging tool that I use with a 3-lb. hammer and an anvil to crimp the terminals on both ends. The cable, ring terminals, and battery post terminals are all available on Ebay, or any welding supply can probably make up custom cables in any length and size you need.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1333871 Fri Nov 15 2019 02:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
so to be clear, ground from battery to bolt holding starter, not to the frame?


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333875 Fri Nov 15 2019 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
Eliminating that frame to engine cable reduces the circuit by two connections. Any extra connection point is a potential source for a dirty or loose circuit that causes slow cranking. Since the starter draws more current than any other component, it makes sense to provide it with the shortest path back to the battery. Yes, connect the ground cable to either a starter attaching bolt, or one of the bolts that hold the bellhousing to the block. Then run smaller ground wires from the engine to the body and frame to provide a ground path for headlights, dash instruments, etc. It's hard to have "too many" good grounds!

The only reason GM used the 2-cable setup was cost savings- - - - - two short braided cables cost less than one long heavy cable.
Jerry



The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1333936 Fri Nov 15 2019 11:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I am putting a 1/0 cable from the battery to the starter housing , eliminating the braided cable from the battery to the frame and kept. the braided cable from the starter to the frame. will that work.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333944 Sat Nov 16 2019 01:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
That should work great. Just to be sure you have a good ground path for lights, etc. unbolt both ends of the braided ground and scrub the connectors and the places they attach with a wire brush. Even a little resistance can cause dim headlights, poor charging system performance, and other hard to find gremlins. I remember one situation where a mid-1970's Plymouth would spike the alternator voltage to over 17 volts anytime the brake lights came on- - - - -cleaning the area where the voltage regulator bolted to the body and running a ground wire from the body to the engine solved the problem! The car had already had two alternators and a battery changed before the problem got to my shop. Parts and labor to fix it were less than $10.00!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333955 Sat Nov 16 2019 02:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 208
E
Ed Hotaling Offline
Shop Shark
Just a few thoughts:
If the ground strap is old, it could be corroded internally. I had this problem on a tractor I had. Even after converting to 12 volts, it was a pain to start. When I replaced both cables, it would crank so fast that it would make oil pressure!
Another thing to check for a slow starter is the switch contacts on top of the starter. I had to replace the one on my '46 last year. It was getting so it didn't want to crank and a new switch was all it needed.
My final thought is that the tractor had gotten so it would only start if it was towed nearly half a mile. Turns out the valves need to be adjusted. Who knew? Not me.:)
There's not much to go wrong with these systems, but a few things often get overlooked.

Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333982 Sat Nov 16 2019 03:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
thanks folks, I appreciate the input!


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1333990 Sat Nov 16 2019 04:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
Ed, that's a good point about those flat braided ground straps. The crimp connection between the braid and the ring terminal on the end is subject to corrosion that can't be cleaned nor seen readily. Using a low-reading voltmeter to monitor the voltage drop from end to end of a cable while cranking can be a real eye-opener!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334087 Sun Nov 17 2019 04:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
further update
update:

1. new Optima battery
2. now 1/0 positive cable
3. fuel filter bowl is 1/2 full - which is ok
4. new 1/o ground directly from new, fully charged Optima 6 volt battery
5. `I have spark, but turns very very slow, and sometimes not catching.
6. my next move is to remove the starter
\
keep in mind, it was running just fine, then it got colder, and troubles began

is there a way to test the starter in the vehicle to see if its bad or is removing the starter the next step? I have never done it but looks pretty simple.


thanks


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334091 Sun Nov 17 2019 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
Do you have a battery load tester capable of putting a 300 amp load or more on the battery? When I'm diagnosing a starter I monitor the battery terminal voltage while the engine is cranking, and then load the battery to the same voltage and measure the amperage draw. A 6 volt starter in good condition should crank the engine at normal speed with approximately a 200-250 amp current draw. HAS ANYONE DONE A LOAD TEST ON THE "NEW" BATTERY?

Since most people don't have a heavy current capacity carbon pile load tester, cranking voltage is the only test that might give a clue about the condition of the starter. The battery terminals shouldn't drop below about 4.5 volts during cranking unless there's a problem with the starter, or the engine is almost seized up for some reason. (Rusty cylinder walls, etc.) Try spinning the engine with the spark plugs removed to see what speed you can get that way.

Have you done the 15 second cranking test with the ignition disabled like I suggested? Sometimes I think I'm shouting down an empty well because people tend to ignore my advice and make wild-donkey guesses. Maybe 60 years' experience at diagnosing electrical systems doesn't count!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeBb-gTjWKA

Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334116 Sun Nov 17 2019 07:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
next I am doing the starter test with ignition off. thanks.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334230 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I just tried the ignition off test and cranking with ignition off, fully charged battery. voltag on battery was 5.6 volts. could is still be the starter???


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334236 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
OK- - - -now we're making some progress. That's way too HIGH a voltage reading for a starter that's under cranking load. Was the cranking speed normal, or slow? If the cranking was slow, there's a high resistance circuit inside the starter. Remove the starter and dismantle it. The first thing to check is the mechanical push button that the foot pedal linkage operates. It's attached to the starter housing with two screws. There's a big copper contact at the stud where the battery + cable attaches, and another one that connects to the field coils and armature brushes. The push button connects these two contacts with a big copper washer. Burned contacts there can cause low current draw, or there could be loose or burned connections inside the starter.

Unless you find problems with the bolt-on switch, it's probably time to rebuild or replace the starter. Be sure to get a 6 Volt starter if you replace it, since there's a gear drive and flywheel tooth difference in 6 and 12 volt units. There's at least a possibility you've got a 12 volt starter installed. The quickest way to tell the difference is to measure the diameter of the armature shaft- - - - -12 volt starters have a 1/2" diameter shaft- - - -6V armatures measure 5/8". If there's a Delco ID label on the starter, a 6V label will have black lettering. 12V labels are red.

If you've got a 12 volt starter, the next thing to check is the number of teeth on the flywheel. 6V flywheels have 139 teeth. 12V flywheel ring gears have 168 teeth. a 6V starter WILL NOT work on a 168 tooth flywheel- - - - -there will be lots of noise, and rapid wear and/or breakage of teeth on both the flywheel and the starter drive.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334237 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,879
Justhorsenround Offline
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
Get some help and try push starting it. If it starts then I would replace the starter. Convert to 12 volts, read the Tech Tips on how to do it. Simple and if you use the 6 volt starter (12 volts won’t hurt it) it will spin plenty fast to start the engine. jmo


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)
‘65 Chevy Biscayne 4dr 230 I-6 one owner (I’m #2)
‘39 Dodge Businessmans Coupe


"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line" and lock up those on the wrong side of that line.

Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334239 Mon Nov 18 2019 06:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,172
Rusty Rod Offline
Moderator - The Electrical Bay and Rocky Mountain Bolters
Hello MontanaLee. How fast was the engine turning over on your last test?

I really don't have any new advice for you. BUT, I would suggest that you write each recommendation given to you on a piece of paper (Particularly Mr. Lincolns). then write what you did to correct that problem. Then what was the result. Kind of like a checklist... this is to ensure that you didn't miss a step.

How cold is it when you are trying to start the truck? Is the truck outside or inside? do you have the capability to warm up the engine before you try to start it? (taking care to not burn down your garage!!!!)


Another quality post.


Real Trucks Rattle

HELP! The Paranoids are after me!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334242 Mon Nov 18 2019 07:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
If you want a 6v system (for old times sake, etc), do not give up and switch to 12v (just to get/have/obtain dependable starting).

A properly set-up/maintained 6v system will start dependably every time.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334255 Mon Nov 18 2019 10:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
update for the 17th-

on top of new 1/0 cable to the starter from the battery. I just now replaced the starter with one form NAPA ( 6 volt)
new Optima battery
I have spark
I have fuel

still turns over slowly and does not start

suggestions???

new condenser?
new points?
new rotor?
new coil?


am I wide open.
]thanks for having in there with me


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334261 Mon Nov 18 2019 10:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
Run a 1/0 cable (or heavy ground strap) from the battery to a starter mounting bolt (or, run a temporary heavy starter-cable from the battery to a starter bolt).


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: tclederman] #1334267 Mon Nov 18 2019 10:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I ran a new 1/0 cable from the new optima battery to the new starter ( lower mountain bolt) . also ran a 1/0 fabric covered cable from positive terminal on new battery to new starter.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334268 Mon Nov 18 2019 11:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
What is the cranking speed with the spark plugs removed? It should spin noticeably faster with the compression relieved. If not, there's too much drag somewhere- - - -rusty cylinder walls, tight bearings, too-thick oil, etc. What temperature is the engine? If the truck is parked outside in very cold weather, it might be necessary to do a 12 volt jump start, but I've seen lots of 6V vehicles start reliably even in sub-zero weather. Did you load test that "new" battery? It should deliver 250-300 amps for 15 seconds without dropping the terminal voltage below 4.5 volts.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334272 Mon Nov 18 2019 11:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
will check cranking speed with plug removed tomorrow. oil probably needs changing bit is only been in the 30's not terrible cold. The truck is inside but not heated. I will look at a 12 volt jump tomorrow as well. I did load test the battery before I replaced the starter and with ignition off, voltage was 5.6 volts while cranking. How best to jump start with 12 volt.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334278 Mon Nov 18 2019 11:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
You'll get a pretty healthy flash from the booster cable as you attach the last connection because of the mismatch in battery voltage. I always make the ground cable connection last, as far away from the battery as possible to prevent any danger of getting a hydrogen gas explosion. Don't crank with the 12 volts attached for more than 10 seconds or so to prevent any damage to the coil, points, etc. Disconnect the 12V jumper as soon as the engine starts.

One thing I've done while waking up a 6V engine after a long sleep is to install a 12V coil temporarily and use a 12V battery to do the initial startup, run-in and tune up. Just disconnect the Battery wire at the voltage regulator to prevent doing any damage to the charging system, and leave the lights and other 6V accessories turned off. Once it's starting and running reliably, you can swap back to 6V operation.


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334471 Wed Nov 20 2019 03:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
is it important to turn the engine over with spark plugs removed, before I jump start it with a 12 volt battery?


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334472 Wed Nov 20 2019 03:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
to be clear jump start with 12 volt in lieu of removing the plugs to see how it turns over. keep in mind it ran very well 2 weeks ago, just a little sluggish starting but fired off, now it turns very very very slow.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334477 Wed Nov 20 2019 03:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
The test with the spark plugs removed is important, because jump starting with 12 volts can hide a tight rotating assembly. If the pistons and/or bearings are too tight you really don't want to make the problem worse by forcing the engine to turn with high starter torque.

We're swimming upstream at this point because apparently some preliminary steps like pre-soaking the cylinders with lightweight oil or Diesel fuel, etc. apparently was not done prior to trying to start the engine. I usually spend a week or more checking the basic mechanical condition of an engine before I make any attempt to start it. That includes lots of pre-oiling, soaking the cylinders and valve guides with something like PB Blaster or KROIL, compression testing, spinning the engine at no load with the spark plugs removed, etc. Actually making the engine fire and run on its own is the dessert course of a meal- - - - -not the appetizer!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334494 Wed Nov 20 2019 06:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
what is better KROIL OR pB Blaster


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334498 Wed Nov 20 2019 07:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
hmmm . . .

That is a lot like asking "which religion is better"?


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334499 Wed Nov 20 2019 07:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,911
tclederman Online
Boltergeist
hmmm . . .

That is a lot like asking "which religion is better"?

links to comparison tests


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334520 Wed Nov 20 2019 09:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
I've used KROIL for over 40 years- - - - -don't see a reason to change now. Besides- - - -it's a Tennessee product, made about 60 miles North of my place. I'm also 30-something miles from Lynchburg, home of Jack Daniel's! Guess what's in the liquor cabinet?

www.kanolabs.com

Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334585 Thu Nov 21 2019 04:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,641
5
52Carl Offline
Master Gabster
I used Liquid Wrench for years before I discovered PB Blaster and never went back to Liquid Wrench. Then I discovered Kroil and never went back to PB Blaster.
Now I am out of Kroil and I am sad because the dude who supplied me with the Kroil quit the job where he stole it from. He now works for himself and has no one to steal from anymore.
I guess I need to find a new friend.

Last edited by 52Carl; Thu Nov 21 2019 04:51 AM.
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334587 Thu Nov 21 2019 04:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
It's cheaper by the gallon- - - - -order it direct!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334663 Thu Nov 21 2019 08:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Light oil first before PB Blaster or KOIL, or just use KOIL?


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1334668 Thu Nov 21 2019 09:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
KROIL is a penetrating oil, intended to get between rusty or corroded parts and free them up. Put a couple of ounces into each cylinder, let it sit a few days, then drain it out of the oil pan and pour it back into the cylinders if necessary. (Drain the oil first). I've gotten virtually all of it out of an oil pan after it sits in the cylinders a few days, even on engines with the piston rings rusted tight to the cylinder walls. If the engine isn't stuck that badly, it will usually end up in the oil pan overnight. Apply a liberal squirt to all the valve stems and guides to minimize the chance of sticky valves and bent pushrods. If you're storing an engine for long periods of time, use a thicker coating like 30 weight motor oil in the cylinders as a preservative.

Once the engine is spinning freely and appears to be ready to run, fill the crankcase with fresh motor oil, clean up the spark plugs, set the timing, use fresh gasoline from a clean container like an outboard motor fuel tank (NEVER the vehicle tank unless it's been thoroughly cleaned or replaced) and run the engine until it's warmed up.

If you want to clean sludge and crud from the crankcase and rotating assembly, add 3-4 quarts of Diesel fuel or kerosene to the oil so the crankshaft is running in the lube oil/solvent mix, and run the engine at a moderately fast idle for 20-30 minutes. DO NOT DRIVE THE VEHICLE WITH DILUTED OIL! The spinning crankshaft and connecting rods will splash the thinned-out oil around inside the engine like a washing machine agitator and do a better job of cleaning the lower end than removing the oil pan and using a brush and solvent could ever accomplish. Drain the thinned oil while it's hot, change the oil filter element and add fresh oil. The engine should crank and run normally, with 6 volts. Don't forget to reinstall the 6V coil.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: 52Carl] #1335105 Sun Nov 24 2019 05:47 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 675
T
tom moore Offline
Shop Shark
I’m in agreement with those that prefer Kroil whether it’s stolen or purchased. I also use ATF. I have used Jack Daniels too, it’s better tasting than Kroil. MontanaLee: Keep us posted on your progress. These things can draw down the patience reserve, but some of us are learning along with you too.

Re: 235 won't start [Re: 52Carl] #1335138 Sun Nov 24 2019 11:35 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,380
B
bartamos Offline
Master Gabster
Originally Posted by 52Carl
I used Liquid Wrench for years before I discovered PB Blaster and never went back to Liquid Wrench. Then I discovered Kroil and never went back to PB Blaster.
Now I am out of Kroil and I am sad because the dude who supplied me with the Kroil quit the job where he stole it from. He now works for himself and has no one to steal from anymore.
I guess I need to find a new friend crook.



I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.
Plan B is always better than plan A, by definition.


Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1335154 Mon Nov 25 2019 12:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,641
5
52Carl Offline
Master Gabster
You got any Kroil, buddy?

Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1335335 Tue Nov 26 2019 04:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
it has been cold in Montana and even though my truck is inside a garage, I had not trouble starting it about 2 weeks ago, and the first sign of the cold (30's) is when the starting problem started. my next move is to remove the plugs and see if it turns over easier. Next I am going to drain the oil, and if I got some resistance still with the plugs removed, I will use KOIL, which I ordered and should be here today. one thing I forgot to mention, I have a factory installed hydraulic pump, operated off a fan belt, could that be the source of the problem. I have not got it operational since there was a leaking hydraulic cylinder on the bed, when I got the truck this summer. Just a though, I am just baffled that I replaced the battery, cables, adn starter, to improve the starting issues, and not it seems to have gotten worse. I am told there is less than 600 miles on the rebuild of the engine. thanks for all the input!


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1335338 Tue Nov 26 2019 05:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
I'd suggest removing all the belts while diagnosing the slow cranking problem, and once you have determined whether or not the engine has an internal problem start adding belt driven accessories back on one at a time. The recent rebuild concerns me- - - -it's possible some sort of mistake was made that is just now coming to be noticed. I've seen situations where a less than clean assembly allowed debris to accumulate in a rod or main bearing and result in the bearing and crankshaft clearance tightening up. That happened on a competitor's racing engine once, and he ended up losing a $10K rotating assembly over it.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1337098 Mon Dec 09 2019 08:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
just did the 15 second ignition off crank, lowest battery reading was 5.2V. tomorrow going to remove spark plugs and see how it turns over. very very slow today, but it is pretty cold.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1337523 Fri Dec 13 2019 06:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I just finished removing the plugs and it turned over much faster. I am draining the oil now. should I still use the Kroil down the spark plug holes?


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1337669 Sat Dec 14 2019 09:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,277
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
If you can't turn the engine over with the spark plugs removed by grabbing a fan blade (with a properly tightened fan belt) it probably needs more lubrication in the cylinders. Get the rings well-lubed and spinning freely before going any further.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 235 won't start [Re: MontanaLee] #1337675 Sat Dec 14 2019 10:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 45
M
MontanaLee Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
thanks jerry.


1948 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup
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