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Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
#1325490 Mon Sep 09 2019 07:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 116
D
Shop Shark
OK I've been discussing my thoughts/hopes/dreams regarding my '64 292 in many threads here. My most recent got a reply from Jerry, where He asked me what I expected/needed from it.
Oddly, I never actually defined that in my mind until then. I'd always considered all the options available, and how I might improve on them, and then apply the best ones. Be done with it, and enjoy. smile
I mean, I wanted more -- a lot more. If I could get it, and that's about as far as I ever took it.
Well, after being charged with a specific definition, and after carefully pondering the issue. It was clear that ideally I simply wanted more "grunt". That is (mostly) more of the torque I already enjoy with the 292. So That was my answer. Which lead me to start researching how I might best achieve my newly acquired goal. In the end, I decided that I really only needed (wanted) low MPH power. You know, somewhere in the 0 to 50mph range. But it'd be nice if I had the option to pass someone without difficulty if I needed, or wanted to. Even better if the velocity of my passing them took the side-view mirrors of their rig as I passed. wink
Anyway. I think the best way is to target RPMs, as the MPH will then take care of itself. So after contemplating all the ways I could think of, and all the ways it's been done. I figure the most expedient route would be Turbo.
I figure if I keep the boost somewhere in the 8 to 14 range, I can use the stock rods, and pistons. It appears that a TO4E-60 STG V .68 A/R, or a TO4B / SH STG V .68 A/R, will give me some 400Hp @ around 2000. A "best guess" on torque seems to be about 500ft-lbs @ roughly the same RPM.
I figure I can take the exhaust after it leaves the waste gate, and coil it around a 30 gallon drum of sour mash, and produce all the methanol I need to keep the engine cool, and the pistons from self destructing in the bores. wink

I guess I'm looking for opinions here. I haven't done any real "performance" turbo for a few years now, only "maintenance" work, and the technology moves pretty fast. I'm open to alternate methods. But I guess I'd have to say, my minimum "target" would have to be 300/300 HP/Tq.

Thanks for any input. smile

Chris


'64 Chev C20 LWB stepside ( Ol'Blue )
[img]http://boltbucket.org/img/OlBlue-C20-badge-64x64.jpg[/img]
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325491 Mon Sep 09 2019 07:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,612
H
Boltergeist
Look at the so-called "atheletes" who enhance their performance by using steroids. They get a short-term gain in performance, and all it costs them is irreparable harm to their bodies, chronic illnesses, psychological episodes including domestic violence, and occasionally suicide.

Turbochargers are the steroids of the automotive world. Unless an engine is built from the drawing board to the finished production model with a turbo in mind, there will be a big increase in performance for a short time after the turbo is installed, followed by a blowup of epic proportions. Invest in a few big boxes to haul the pieces of your engine home- - - -you'll need them!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325494 Mon Sep 09 2019 07:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 116
D
Shop Shark
Yep. I knew I'd hear something like this -- and rightfully so. Turbo generates a lot of heat, the number one killer, or life shortener of an engine. heat = friction = (premature) death.
Still, I'm not (yet) convinced the 292, properly setup, couldn't easily handle an average 8lbs of boost, combined with a goodly amount of alcohol/water.
I'm only really looking for 300/300. It's practically already at 300lbs torque now (stock).

Thanks (as always), Jerry!

Chris


'64 Chev C20 LWB stepside ( Ol'Blue )
[img]http://boltbucket.org/img/OlBlue-C20-badge-64x64.jpg[/img]
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325505 Mon Sep 09 2019 08:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,612
H
Boltergeist
Start out with a set of tool steel connecting rods (Carillo for instance) at around $2500.00 a set. Then buy some custom forged pistons, Venolia or something similar- - - -$1,000.00 +, then fabricate a set of cooling nozzles to spray a constant stream of oil at the underside of the pistons to keep from melting them under full power. That's going to require a very high volume oil pump- - - -possibly a belt-driven one from the crankshaft hub since the distributor shaft and gear won't be able to handle that kind of load and a standard-type pump won't be able to supply enough volume. Once you get the bottom end beefed up enough to survive, then turn your attention to the cooling system- - - -run a BIG oil cooler and an oversized radiator, plus an air-to-air intercooler to make that extra air the turbo is pumping into the engine dense enough to be worthwhile, not so hot and thin it does you no good. Now for the cylinder head- - - -break out another few thousand for a highly modified head to handle all that extra intake volume, and a carburetor big enough to flow the air and mix enough fuel with it. Then build a huge exhaust system to handle the turbo outlet volume.

After you give your checkbook CPR for a while, sit back and admire your handiwork. You can do that every time you nail the gas pedal while you're waiting for the turbo to spool up and develop some boost!

Alternate suggestion- - - - -purchase a bone-stock Cummins turbo Diesel in a RAM pickup, and start out with more HP and torque than the 292 can ever hope to make- - - -with a factory warranty to boot! And spend a lot less money!
Jerry



The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325509 Mon Sep 09 2019 09:03 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,501
K
Housekeeping (Moderator) Making a Stovebolt Bed & Paint and Body Shop Forums
Jerry, you forgot about the head studs for another $1000.
I'm waiting to see the results of throwing a turbo on a 292.

To the OP: Turbos only work well at higher RPMs, and won't give you much low RPM "grunt". For that you need a supercharger rather than a turbocharger. The difference is the turbocharger is driven by exhaust spinning a turbine which spins a compressor wheel in the intake, while the supercharger is a mechanically driven compressor wheel, not depending on exhaust flow to spin it.


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos [flickr.com]
Busting rust since the mid-60's
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325519 Mon Sep 09 2019 09:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 116
D
Shop Shark
@Jerry,
Well spoken -- assuming 1000Hp. wink
Honestly, I actually have been doing my research. It appears (given about a dozen "real life") examples. That a number of people did more than create a Wish List. They bellied up to the bar, and said "what's the minimum it'd take to get some decent street performance, and whats it cost to for respectable strip performance? I've (got, or been wanting to build up a/my 292). I've heard that some notable people in the past swear by StoveBolts."
Turns out it's "doable" on stock @ low R's with a stock (exhaust) manifold w/2, and a half inch out. 2, and a half turbo intake, about a .68 - .84 vanes, and a 2 inch waste (gate). .68 is apparently "mild" enough not to torture a stock set of pistons, and rods, and as mentioned, delivers ~400Hp.
OTOH, I saw a video of one of Tom Lowes trucks pulling a 7.6 1/4 mile. He did it in a rig setup almost exactly as the setup you suggested. That delivers some 915Hp, and uses a great deal bigger turbo, and boost. smile Good call, Jerry!

@Kevin,
Indeed those were always my understanding, as well. You want some instant grunt on the cheap? Go to the speedways, (drag) strips, and get a blower for cheap from some of the pros. They have a great deal stricter tolerances for their mills, and given they also have sponsors. Would rather retire/sell their old mills, than try and rebuild them. Also a pretty easy way to get a 426, or 392 HEMI on the cheap. No good for the "pros", but perfectly fine for the "weekend warrior". smile
It had also been my understanding that turbos were really only good for freeway boost. Given the time it took to spool up the desired boost. But i read a couple of actual examples that provided reasonable boost as low as 2 grand. While that's not great for a city stick shift. Works pretty well power braking it in an automatic.

Anyway. That's what I gathered searching the interweb, and some of the other inline blogs, and past references to inline GURU's.

Thank you both for the feedback!

Chris


'64 Chev C20 LWB stepside ( Ol'Blue )
[img]http://boltbucket.org/img/OlBlue-C20-badge-64x64.jpg[/img]
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325520 Mon Sep 09 2019 10:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,612
H
Boltergeist
Doing race stuff on the street is very seldom successful- - - -I started trying in the early 1960's and I haven't figured out how to do it yet. However- - - -I've bought a lot of groceries, raised a family, and paid off a hundred acres of backwoods Tennessee in the process of helping other people throw wheelbarrows full of their money away trying. Hotrodding, or circle track racing is always a lot more fun when I'm spending somebody else's money! Keep it up- - - -there will always be somebody out there willing to tell you what you want to hear, and stick a vacuuum cleaner into your pockets in the process!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325536 Mon Sep 09 2019 11:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 116
D
Shop Shark
I guess that might be part of my problem. I've spent all my life dreaming up things (mostly "hot rod" related), but the cost of raising 2 girls, and a family got in the way -- a good way.
But now that I've survived the cost of an "X". I've now managed a chunk of property, and a house (paid in full). Along with a wife of 20yrs that shares most all the same interests as I. Not the least of which, old rigs! smile
I guess now that I'm in a position that I pretty much pick, and choose my jobs (work). I'd like to revisit some of those accumulated (vehicle related) aspirations, and build up something I can get in trouble driving. smile
But you're probably right. I knew the heat, and subsequent (additional) pressure would take it's toll. I guess I was hoping to live in denial, and believe that something that sounded too good to be true. Would actually be true. :P
So I came here for a Reality Check, and thankfully, got it!

Really appreciate your candor, Jerry. As well as everyone else's -- I love this place!

Thanks again!

Chris


'64 Chev C20 LWB stepside ( Ol'Blue )
[img]http://boltbucket.org/img/OlBlue-C20-badge-64x64.jpg[/img]
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325541 Tue Sep 10 2019 12:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 116
D
Shop Shark
It would appear that Fall is starting to settle in. It's starting to rain. So I'm going to pull the '86 735i out of my nice big 2, and a half car garage. So I can roll the original 292 in.
When I get 'er all torn down. I'd like to reopen this conversation. Maybe get something more realistic on the table. smile

OH, while I'm thinking of it. Would you be remotely interested in cleaning up my crank, Jerry?

Thanks!

Chris out...


'64 Chev C20 LWB stepside ( Ol'Blue )
[img]http://boltbucket.org/img/OlBlue-C20-badge-64x64.jpg[/img]
Re: Does anyone know what a Turbo (charger) is?
Detroit Iron #1325550 Tue Sep 10 2019 12:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,612
H
Boltergeist
Oh boy- - - - -making a few snarky answers to that question are tempting- - - -but this is a family-friendly site! Unfortunately, we're almost as far apart as the geography of the country allows (I'm in south central Tennessee) and I don't have a crankshaft grinder. I do have an old lathe without a working gearbox that I use to polish bearing journals, but that's no substitute for a good regrinding job. Have you measured the journals for diameter, taper, and out of round? Sometimes a simple shoeshine motion with a long piece of extra-fine emery cloth is all that's necessary to clean up a crankshaft journal, as long as it's within limits of the current diameter specifications. I usually use "out-of-round" limits of .001", and taper from front to rear of the journal needs to be within .0005". If there's a way to slowly spin the shaft between centers and use a powered belt sander with a 400 grit or finer belt, it's a lot easier to do a good polishing job. I made my own crankshaft polisher from a Harbor Freight angle grinder, a piece of 1" square steel tubing, and some aluminum round stock machined into shouldered pulleys to carry the belt. I've got less than $100 invested in a tool that usually costs $500.00 or more. I've also seen polishers made from a retired Skilsaw and some tubing and pulleys.

BTW- - - -that Federal-Mogul shop specification manual I mentioned a while back- - - -I found one in much better condition than the one I
've been using for years on Ebay and ordered it. It's enroute to me now.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
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