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Stud VS hub piloted wheels #1325203 Sat Sep 07 2019 03:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,025
H
Hotrod Lincoln Online OP
Boltergeist
Quite often, part of the "resto-mods" we do on our trucks includes swapping wheels. On 1/2 through 1-ton trucks, most of them originally have tapered lug nuts that center the wheel bolt holes on the lug studs, but most of them also have a close-fitting center hole that mates with a flange on the front hub or rear axle. Sometimes an aftermarket wheel will have a bigger center hole, so all the stress of holding up the vehicle is carried by the lug studs. How about some comments on how the group feels about matching up the wheel center hole size with the hubs/axles? Critical, "nice to do", "makes no difference", etc. I've always been just a little uncomfortable about trusting the studs to carry vehicle weight as well as hold the wheels on.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325207 Sat Sep 07 2019 04:04 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,452
K
klhansen Offline
Shop Shark
As long as the bolt holes are tapered and you use tapered lug nuts, my opinion is that it makes absolutely no difference how big the center hole is.

My F250 has "hub-centric" wheels and flat lug nuts with captive washer. The real purpose of the close fitting center hole in that instance is to center the wheel on the hub. With "lug-centric" wheels, the tapered lugs do the centering. In both cases, the clamping force of the lugs is what holds the wheel on, and hold the vehicle up, although with "hub-centric" wheels, if you run around with loose lug nuts you might go a few miles farther before the wheel falls off.


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325212 Sat Sep 07 2019 05:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 24
B
BigBlockMan Offline
New Guy
I have no technical data either way as to which is better. Logic says the bigger the load the more stress applied to the wheel/hub mounting point.

To me it makes sense for larger vehicles to have a tight hub fit as to support the load better. The OEM companies have a way bigger R&D budget than any of us, they probably set things up in the cheapest and most effective way they found.

That being said I would say the importance of matching hub size would depend upon loads carried. 1/2T used as a daily driver rarely loaded....eh who cares, 1T+ working everyday should probably get darn close.

My opinion for what it's worth.


Chris

Too many to work on
4 bolts, 2 square bodies, 4 GMT400s...and those are the keepers
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325216 Sat Sep 07 2019 10:54 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,134
G
Grigg Offline
.
So long as you’re following what was originally intended, wheels with tapered lug nut seats get tapered lug nuts, or otherwise for other wheel mounting systems I wouldn’t worry.
The system was figured out when the vehicle was new and if you have problems with wheels falling off you either have it implemented wrong or severely overloaded.

The heavy truck world has moved to hub centered wheels by and large, but many cars and some trucks still use stud centered wheels. I view them as both OK and wouldn’t bother trying to make one system into the other for no good reason.

“Budd” wheels, stud centered, for heavy trucks have been around for well more than half a century (a whole one yet?) and still in use. Mike’s fire truck has them. The studs are quite large, obviously designed for the job at hand.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325227 Sat Sep 07 2019 01:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,461
5
52Carl Offline
Master Gabster
I have seen issues with aftermarket aluminum rims on hotrods coming loose due to the combination of not being supported by the hub, and likely from expansion and contraction of aluminum from heating/cooling cycles, and improper torque specs.

Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325233 Sat Sep 07 2019 02:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,025
H
Hotrod Lincoln Online OP
Boltergeist
I'm in the process of converting my daily driver (1,000+ miles a week) To a slightly lower profile tire/wheel setup. The wheels I'm using have a center hole about 3/4" bigger than the OEM wheels. Both wheels use the same lug spacing and tapered lug nuts. I'm in the process of machining a ring to press-fit over the rear axle flange to allow the wheel to center on the hub, as well as the lug studs. It's sort of a "belt and suspenders" approach to holding up a pair of pants, but it can't hurt. The tire size change is from 245/70-17 tires to 235/70-16's. There's a bit over an inch of height difference, which translates to 3"-4" difference in circumference.

The whole reason for the lower-profile tire is to try to change the road speed where the torque converter clutch unlocks- - - -right now the comfortable cruise speed is 75MPH and 2000 RPM. That's close to speeding ticket territory, even on the interstate, and the vehicle doesn't like 55 MPH 2-lane roads at all. A side effect beyond playing Smokey and the Bandit all the time just might be batter gas mileage. Right now I'm pretty sure I'm lugging the engine down at times and going into full-fuel power mode way too often.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: 52Carl] #1325254 Sat Sep 07 2019 06:51 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,452
K
klhansen Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by 52Carl
I have seen issues with aftermarket aluminum rims on hotrods coming loose due to the combination of not being supported by the hub, and likely from expansion and contraction of aluminum from heating/cooling cycles, and improper torque specs.

Just about every owner's manual says recheck wheel lug nut torque after 50 miles, but has anyone actually done that?

Jerry, no problem with your belt and suspenders approach with the rings, but I don't think it's really necessary.


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325255 Sat Sep 07 2019 07:07 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,275
B
bartamos Offline
Master Gabster
A tapered nut, in a tapered hole, forces an "exact fit". Tolerances would never allow 6 or 8 tapers to all seat. Therefore not all are perfectly seated even if a tightening pattern is followed. There will be a few nuts that center the wheel to the centerline of rotation of axle. That will have it's own tolerances. There will be a few nuts partly in the taper and mostly just clamp........... but the system is suffice.

It is impossible to have the load carried by tapered nuts AND a tight fit hub. Tolerances will not allow that. The wheel center hole has to have clearance to the hub to allow the wheel to move/seek the taper of the nuts....or the studs have to have clearance in the wheel holes to allow a tight hub fit.

As you know, it has been said, that hub centered is better for load strength but it may allow wheel to turn and apply a shear load to untapered studs........... but the system is suffice.

You can play around all you want, you can't beat the tolerance Gods.
Agree with Grigg.
I also say, you are fixing a problem that does not exist. Either system is strong. The number of studs and the size has been designed/engineered to probably a 2.5X safety factor. Not to worry. What is this daily driver?


I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.


Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325260 Sat Sep 07 2019 08:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,025
H
Hotrod Lincoln Online OP
Boltergeist
It ain't a stovebolt, so I ain't saying. The PC Patrol gets too many opportunities to rap my knuckles already! The centering ring will help during a tire change, if nothing else. I'm also discarding a set of aftermarket alloy wheels in favor of OEM-style steel wheels. Those who don't agree with my approach- - - -please note the sprig of mistletoe attached to my untucked shirt tail!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Stud VS hub piloted wheels [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1325263 Sat Sep 07 2019 08:56 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,275
B
bartamos Offline
Master Gabster
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
How about some comments on how the group feels about matching up the wheel center hole size with the hubs/axles? Critical, "nice to do", "makes no difference", etc.
Jerry

No warning of mistletoe?

Come on Jerry, is it a Ford? A Mopar? Jap? Tell us, the mistletoe will cover your xxx.


I'm away on an ego trip. Will be back on Feb 30.
I'm not an Auto Mechanic, but I play one on TV.
I charge $0.02 for every opinion and I take Paypal.


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