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GarWood PTO #1322571 Mon Aug 19 2019 08:09 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
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The 1948 Chevy one ton dump bed I am reviving has a GarWood PTO that leaks profusely at the actuator shaft. Ready to remove and take apart, but anybody know a provider for the O ring or seal that needs to be replaced? Nice working unit, just leaks a bunch. Looks like GarWood was sold in 1948 after making lots of GM dump truck mechs. Any idea who bought them and may have parts. Earlier threads this topic helpful, but no source indicated.

Dale

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1322590 Mon Aug 19 2019 10:15 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,134
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Grigg Offline
.
remove the seal with care and see what numbers may be on it. If any then it can very likely be matched to a new one at your regular auto parts store (like NAPA) or a bearing supply house.
Alternatively you can likely do the same with dimensions from the old seal and or where it lives in the PTO.

If as you say it's an old and forgotten manufacturer then you're probably better off with existing numbers or dimensions any how.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1322601 Mon Aug 19 2019 11:24 PM
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Elderly Iron Offline
Shop Shark
Lots of them on the Internationals as well. Might check with some of those forums, too. I got some seals at Western States hydraulic repair in Medford Oregon for one that was on an International, but it may not be the same model. That truck is long gone. 541 770 1374

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1322655 Tue Aug 20 2019 10:02 AM
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Paul_WNC Offline
Shop Shark
Dale,

Garwood was a leader in hydraulic ram and hoists back in the 1930-40's. They got bought out by various companies. If you can get the shaft diameter and the housing OD, you should be able to source a replacement seal. Here is a great place to start: https://www.timken.com/pdf/7707_National%20Indust%20Seals%20Catalog.pdf
Odds are you can find someone selling the seal on ebay for pennies on the dollar. Let us know how it works out for you.

Paul

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: Paul_WNC] #1322995 Thu Aug 22 2019 02:37 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Still working on it, the actuator? shaft going into the PTO housing is easy to remove with just a cotter key holding the shaft on it's connecting handle. The other shaft; the drive shaft, not so easy, connected with two universals and a driveline to the lift gearbox back at the hydraulics. I am assuming I can remove the connecting universal connected to the shaft at the PTO by somehow pushing the driveline back to and inside the the rear universal temporarily so I can remove the PTO, which would then then be free of both shafts that go inside the PTO. So, still working on it - will let you know if this all works so I can get that shriveled O ring out and find a replacement thanks to your help. Would be nice if I could just remove that O ring without removing the PTO first, but it has a metal retainer housing and I am reluctant to just try to pry out around the shaft and maybe do damage to the housing or the retainer. Not sure its any better going at it from inside the PTO inside, but that seems a safer, if much more laborious solution?

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1323129 Fri Aug 23 2019 11:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 156
0
03marauderman Offline
Shop Shark
I have a dump body mounted on my 70 C 30, which I believe is much older than the truck....The only identification I can find is on the cast iron hinge in the rear that says "WOOD" - no mention of "GAR" Does anyone have any info on this body? - I'm guessing that WOOD was a MFG that merged with GAR, creating GAR-WOOD???....but its just a guess.....

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1323136 Fri Aug 23 2019 12:56 PM
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Paul_WNC Offline
Shop Shark
I am not certain of the pedigree of your PTO driveline as many things can happen to old trucks over the years. On the old original systems I am familiar with, the output shaft u-joint yoke is attached to the output shaft but a 5/16 or 3/8 inch diameter set screw. Loosen the set screw and carefully slide/pry the yoke away from the PTO. The driveline should have a slip joint in it (typically near the center bearing) allowing for some movement aiding in disassembly.

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: Paul_WNC] #1323211 Sat Aug 24 2019 12:46 AM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
I know the set screw you are describing Paul, and I have loosened that, and then tried to maneuver the U yoke back and away from the output shaft, but so far with no success. It has probably been there a long time and may take more than twist wiggle and pull to loosen it enough to get the yoke backed away. I have stopped short of tapping on it, just because it is still attached to the other end which goes into the hydraulic drive. Will just keep trying and try not to screw anything up.It sounds like you are describing exactly what I am seeing. Is the slip joint the other set of universals with a square bar shaft just aft of that center bearing? I did loosen the set screw on that universal also, but still can't get the front u yoke to move back that way. Seems like that drive line is pretty tightly bonded in those u yokes.The center bearing moves nicely. This does appear to be all original but you are right, who ever knows for sure unless you bought it new. Thanks for your help Paul, any suggestions on how to break the bond without messing anything up would be great, but in the meantime I will just keep trying.

Dale

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1323247 Sat Aug 24 2019 11:20 AM
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Paul_WNC Offline
Shop Shark
Yes the slip joint is sometimes a square shaft. There may be decades of old hardened grease and or rust preventing the slip joint to move. Try to clean up that section and apply a liberal amount of penetrant. The woodruff key on the shaft at the yoke may also binding. Gentle tapping on the yoke end at the PTO is fine. Try using a drift so that the hits are clean and precise, tapping in a direction away from the PTO. Tap one side, rotate the driveshaft 180 degrees and tap that side and repeat as necessary. Use care as you don't want to break any difficult to source parts. No need to loose patience and go Neanderthal. Good luck!

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: Paul_WNC] #1323899 Wed Aug 28 2019 10:06 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
This is where I am, driveline and actuator arm to the PTO disconnected. Is it better to remove and replace the O rings from here without removing the PTO from the transmission? Is that possible or is it necessary to remove/replace the O rings from inside the PTO by removing the PTO from the transmission. Has anyone ever done this that can help with this question.

Attached Files
IMG_2969.JPG (177.33 KB, 151 downloads)
Last edited by cameo1956; Thu Aug 29 2019 11:47 PM. Reason: Update to current
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1324191 Fri Aug 30 2019 04:15 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
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Apparently this has never been done before, and there are no manuals, no mention of changing these leaky parts of a PTO even in the myriad of threads on PTOs on Stovebolt (just one such question many years ago that went unanswered). So, here I go, I'm out looking for O rings and some O ring removing tools, and I am going to just try it from the outside first. Obviously if I screw it up I will have to remove the PTO and bench it to fix what I screwed up. But first --- what happens when you remove the six screws that hold it on and pull the PTO loose? does stuff fall out that I don't (yet) know how to fit back in, or does it for some reason just come off nicely without stuff falling out? I'm not somebody who has ever done this before but I know somebody must have, O rings just wear out. BTW, here'a a pic of this old truck that I am trying to help.

Dale

Attached Files
IMG_2950.jpg (76.94 KB, 177 downloads)
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1324210 Fri Aug 30 2019 07:39 PM
Joined: May 2015
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klhansen Offline
Shop Shark
I doubt if you'll be able to remove leaking o-ring type shaft seals without disassembling, as they're typically trapped in a groove in the housing by the shaft (or groove in the shaft within the housing). They start leaking when the shaft wears a flat spot in them and they lose their elasticity.
As far as removal of a PTO from the tranny, the six bolts holding them on just secure the PTO to the tranny, with the gasket in between. The PTO itself won't scatter its parts across the floor.
Once you have the PTO on the bench, it should be pretty easy to figure out disassembly and reassembly.

[on edit] Looking at your pic of the output end, those appear to be lip style seals, not o-rings, and you may be able to get them out with a small pry tool. The one on the output shaft may come out with that housing end and slide off the shaft (assuming you can get the key out of the way. If the seals have metal bodies, there should be numbers on them that you can use to match them up with new ones.

Last edited by klhansen; Fri Aug 30 2019 07:45 PM.

Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: klhansen] #1324254 Sat Aug 31 2019 01:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 253
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Thanks for the support Kevin. I will start with the shift side and see if I can pry that out carefully first before anything else. Thanks for taking that second look. The driveline side seemed like it might be easier with the removable housing, but you are right. I had not thought about the woodruff key in the way and do not know how easily or even if it wants to come out. I'm almost reluctant to try given how difficult it was to remove the universal joint from that shaft. I got a lot of help from Paul on that part of the disassembly earlier on. Fortunately, there was not much leakage on that side to begin with. It is the shift side that is steadily draining the transmission fluid.

I also appreciate the insight on removing the PTO from the tranny if I get to that point. I have removed things before, and wished I hadn't, but I guess you just have to learn that way sometimes. Anyway I feel better removing it now.

Thanks again. I may be back if I get stuck. Heck I'll be back anyway, I''m sure I'm not the only one who has or has had this problem, GarWood, Muncie, Chelsea, seems there are a host of manufacturers who made these, but there must be some similarities in them that allow for information sharing on the things they do have in common.

Dale

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1324330 Sat Aug 31 2019 10:08 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
You are right Kevin, That seal is not an O ring. It is lip style. Is the metal ring around the seal the part that you would pry out?
Here are some pics, as you can see it is now on the bench. The seal on the shift arm is inaccessible from the inside, at least without taking out the main gear to release the shifter shaft, and I have not figured out how to do that yet. Looks a little complicated. There is a large spring clip in a groove on the shaft (at the bottom of the picture). Do you know if that releases the shaft so it can then be pulled back and out of the gears, and out of the housing?? Not sure what the round gizmo, just above the main gear hub actually does, but something clicks at the end of each shift movement, either direction. The gizmo rotates with the shaft. Is this thread better placed on the driveline forum???

Attached Files
IMG_2990.JPG (176.41 KB, 183 downloads)
IMG_2984.JPG (214.77 KB, 195 downloads)
IMG_2989.JPG (174.82 KB, 164 downloads)
Last edited by cameo1956; Mon Sep 02 2019 07:54 PM. Reason: Better observation/questions
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1324611 Tue Sep 03 2019 03:45 AM
Joined: May 2015
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klhansen Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by cameo1956
You are right Kevin, That seal is not an O ring. It is lip style. Is the metal ring around the seal the part that you would pry out?

The metal ring and the rubber lip would come out together. Of course, you'll destroy it in the process of removal. The new seal would be tapped in with a socket or piece of pipe that fits over the shaft and applies pressure all around the metal part of the new seal. Sorry, I can't help with any of your other questions.


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: klhansen] #1324745 Tue Sep 03 2019 09:16 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Thanks Kevin. Working at it. If I can find the right seal, one that I'm sure will fit, I'll do that. Just a rare animal that must not come up very often it seems.

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1331124 Fri Oct 25 2019 02:55 AM
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coilover Offline
Shop Shark
My 1928 Chevy dump truck also has a Wood Hydraulic Bodies dump bed on it; no mention of "Gar" on it's tag. It also has a heater hose size vacuum line run back to the rear end???

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/tZGBH2rR/IMG-4676-1.jpg[/img]


Evan
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1331215 Fri Oct 25 2019 10:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,273
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Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
If the only seal you're trying to replace is the one around the shifter shaft, just drill a small hole in the metal ring and use a sheet metal screw to give you a place to pry on. The seal will come out more or less intact that way so you can examine it for part numbers. I just measure the diameter of the hole in the housing and the diameter of the shaft, and buy an appropriate-sized seal from a bearing supply business. All of those places will have a progressive size chart for lip seals. Just get a seal with the right inside and outside diameters, and the right thickness.

The seals around the rotating shaft(s) can be replaced the same way- - - - -no need to disassemble anything. If any bearings or bushings are sloppy loose, a seal change will be a very temporary fix.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1332102 Thu Oct 31 2019 09:47 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
I have some time ago removed the PTO, had the badly worn shift shaft re-worked by a machine shop, seals all replaced, now getting ready to put the PTO back on the transmission. The gasket that was on the PTO is a fairly thick one that appears to be in good shape given it has probably been on the truck since new. I have some replacement gaskets, but I understand the gasket thickness is very specific to make sure the gears align.

Does anybody know the recommended PTO gasket thickness?

I find no references anywhere except those that say that dimension is important. Frankly the old one looks good enough to just put back on since it was not leaking when it was removed and while it is stiff and fairly thick it seems in good shape. I could supplement it with very thin paper gaskets (on either side) that were returned with the PTO when it was returned to me, but I am concerned about variance in the thickness before I reattach everything.

BTW - thanks Jerry for the screw idea in the metal housing. I would have used it had I not already had everything disassembled for shaft repairs. Hopefully won't need to do it again in my lifetime, but good idea to keep and store. Thanks

Last edited by cameo1956; Sun Nov 03 2019 03:31 PM.
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1332874 Thu Nov 07 2019 03:10 PM
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Finally finished and all reassembled, no leaks after re-filling the transmission with 90wt gear oil, 1 1/2 pints. Probably should add the remaining other half pint to accommodate the PTO? Anyway, thanks for all the help with this little project, on to other needs of this old but very nice truck e.g. terrible steering, etc.

Just so you know, I searched high and low to find any truck co., any alleged PTO restorer (many advertise, few interested in, capable of delivering any old truck service), anybody who was capable of giving this particular PTO a rejuvenation, and I finally found one. He and the trucking company, in business and wrenching since way back when these units were still relatively fresh, have the necessary experience, memory, and resources to refresh an old PTO, with a welcoming attitude ("sure, send it up here"), and, in their words, "gotta keep these old trucks goin' ". Fun to work with, not in a hurry, lots of resources, and at a price very affordable to me. Some good people out there.

Dale

Attached Files
IMG_3078.JPG (224.27 KB, 75 downloads)
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1332875 Thu Nov 07 2019 03:26 PM
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Justhorsenround Offline
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Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1332967 Fri Nov 08 2019 11:40 AM
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tom moore Offline
Shop Shark
Darn. You fixed it! I would have gladly taken your nice truck off your hands. Nice going on the PTO. Would be nice to know the name of the PTO vendor. I may need them for my 1 ton dump. It has a long defunct Arrow Manufacturing. co. PTO. After a couple years of random searches I found a book from them listing their models and how to install. Last week our new puppy happily pulled it off the shelf and chewed it to pieces.

Attached Files
Arrow.JPG (32.9 KB, 98 downloads)
Last edited by tom moore; Fri Nov 08 2019 01:34 PM.
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: tom moore] #1333034 Fri Nov 08 2019 10:00 PM
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Posts: 253
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
The folks that I worked with on the PTO rebuild is Inland Truck in Missoula Montana. I found them by googling and calling U.S.-wide anyone who indicated they did work on older PTOs, even some here in Boise who bailed as soon as I indicated my truck is a '48. Most of the trucking companies are in the repair or remove and replace business with current models and mostly electric or electronic PTOs on big stuff. They were nice about it, mostly just gave me the "go away please" treatment. Then I found the guys in Missoula. They are part of a very large trucking service and parts company. The closest branches to me were in Denver and Missoula, so, Missoula being closer, I called them. Randy answered the phone. He is the service manager and he was most helpful and told me he had 30 years experience and Ken (the General Manager) had 40 so they should be able to help. He was totally familiar with GarWood and told me to send it up. After that, Ken took a personal interest himself and even sent my worn shifter out to a friend for some some needed machine work before reassembly. Anyway, here's their info if you can use it. I hope it can help you as they helped me.

https://www.inlandtruck.com/locatio...ign=gmb&utm_content=montana_missoula

BTW Tom, I have looked high and low for any manuals for these old GarWood PTOs and never found anything, so congrats on the Arrow find. Guess the new puppy was looking too?

Last edited by cameo1956; Sat Nov 09 2019 02:42 PM.
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1333163 Sun Nov 10 2019 12:32 AM
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Posts: 19,273
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Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
You're right about gasket thickness bring important. Most PTO's have a pipe plug somewhere on the housing that allows a dial indicator to contact one of the gears, and different thickness gaskets or several thin ones are used to achieve a minimum amount of backlash. That "thick" gasket might be a multi-layer item that can be peeled back a little at a time if the backlash is too much.


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1333346 Mon Nov 11 2019 04:51 PM
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Posts: 253
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Hi Jerry, what's "backlash"? It shifts easier than before, but I am surprised that it seems to run noisier than what I expected when I let the clutch out, at least to me. Perhaps these things just run noisy normally? Seems two gears running smoothly in a sea of gear oil should be happier and quieter. I hear no clanking, just whirring. Still not sure I got it right on the gasket thickness just because it doesn't leak. That dial indicator would have been great, but no such luck on this old puppy from what I can see.

Dale

Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1333347 Mon Nov 11 2019 05:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,830
2-Ton Offline
Shop Shark
There are several youtube videos showing what backlash is.
Here is just one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2kneEjXw6E

Don


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Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1333368 Mon Nov 11 2019 07:36 PM
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Posts: 19,273
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Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
Simply stated, backlash is the clearance between the transmission counter gear (sometimes called the "cluster" gear), and the PTO gear that engages it. When the PTO is shifted into mesh with the cluster, there will be a slight amount of free play between the gears. If the gears bottom out, they will be noisy, and/or the PTO will be difficult to engage. If the clearance is too great, the gears will whine or rattle from the slack between the mating teeth. Ideally, the gears should mesh with a minimum of slack, and the noise should be at a minimum at that point. Now, here's the kicker- - - - -used gears develop a "wear pattern" from long term running in a particular position, and a change from that relationship, even if the new clearance is technically correct, can cause a whine due to the established running fit being disturbed. You might have to shim the PTO in or out to get the quietest operation, even if the slack between the meshed gears is a bit more than ideal. Virtually all PTO's have a method of checking gear clearance through some type of access hole that allows you to monitor the gear movement. Most often, it's done by removing the grease fill plug and adapting a dial indicator to contact a gear tooth.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1333773 Thu Nov 14 2019 05:06 PM
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Posts: 253
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cameo1956 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
Virtually all PTO's have a method of checking gear clearance through some type of access hole that allows you to monitor the gear movement.
Jerry


From what I can see the only possibility of an access hole on this model might be that protuberance just over the shift shaft, however, that projection does not appear to have been used or drilled/tapped for any purpose. There are no other access holes on this particular model, on one side the only openings are for shaft projection, on the other side the only openings contain the drive shaft bearings and the shift shaft movement chamber. I do appreciate all the detailed backlash information. I intend now to experiment; first remove a gasket layer, then add layer if removal doesn't quiet the gear noise. Would be great to have it running more smoothly. Thanks for all the help.
Dale

Attached Files
IMG_2994.JPG (294.58 KB, 40 downloads)
Re: GarWood PTO [Re: cameo1956] #1333805 Thu Nov 14 2019 09:16 PM
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Posts: 19,273
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Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
If the center of that raised boss is above the gear when the PTO is engaged, I'd be strongly tempted to drill and tap it for a pipe plug, either a 1/4" NPT or a 3/8" NPT. Then you could monitor the tooth engagement and adjust the shim pack accordingly.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
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