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1950 4400 #1309123 Wed May 01 2019 01:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Hi guys
I joined this forum many years ago but I am a much bigger reader than a poster. But the time has finally come. I was able to acquire a 1950 4400. It is in very rough shape right now, and I’m not entirely sure what direction I’m going to be going in on it. The engine is currently stuck but the clutch and transmission seem to be in good shape. The wheels turn freely and the brakes kinda work. There isn’t any usable wiring left at all. My plan for now is to try getting the engine free. If I can get it moving then I will start replacing ignition and fuel systems to try getting it running.
My first question it how do I identify what engine I have ? And how do I identify the type of carb is on it.

I’m not all that computer savvy and I don’t have a computer at all. I use my phone and my iPad. I know many of my questions have probably already been asked and answered but I never seem to be able to find what I’m looking for! Also if anyone can point me in the right direction I would like to post pictures if possible.
More to come !!
Thank you !
Dan


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309144 Wed May 01 2019 03:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,401
R
Rich'sToys Offline
Shop Shark
Welcome!
For info on posting pictures look in the lower left corner of this page.


Rich

'47 Loadmaster

One of the biggest problems facing the world today is apathy. But who cares?






Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309148 Wed May 01 2019 04:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,015
H
Hotrod Lincoln Online
Boltergeist
Find the number that's stamped (not cast) on the machined pad just to the rear of the distributor and post that for us. Most likely a 1950 big truck would have left the factory with a spray-oiler 235 engine, but there's no telling what might have been installed since then. If it's got a sheet metal side cover on the passenger's side that extends up over the cylinder head and the spark plugs and 2 bolts in the center of the valve cover, it's either a 216 or an early 235. A short side cover and 4 bolts at the edges of the valve cover would probably make it a later model 235. The block casting number down near the fuel pump and the stamping I mentioned before will ID it accurately.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Rich'sToys] #1309165 Wed May 01 2019 10:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Thank you I didn’t see that I’ll give posting pictures a try tonight


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309170 Wed May 01 2019 11:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
Send one of us some photos and we will post them for you. We are always anxious to see photos of these old beauties! My Email is fred.nixon@sympatico.ca


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: truckernix] #1309181 Wed May 01 2019 01:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
If I can’t figure it out I will but I want to try figuring out how to work it

Attached Files
4D213A9F-C2AD-46AA-824C-E0D4E741F59B.jpeg (616.99 KB, 262 downloads)
DD7CF359-021B-4859-A897-F1C4BE596DA5.jpeg (369.01 KB, 252 downloads)

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309197 Wed May 01 2019 04:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
Good job, the photos are great! So if that is a US motor, it is a 1950 to 1952, low pressure 235. That motor is unique to those years. In Canada we had 216s of the same design. The truck looks like it wants to do serious work! Congratulations on your new addition.


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309199 Wed May 01 2019 05:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
The truck served as a sign for a local business for the last 40 years! I’m fairly sure the original engine is in it. It was still running when it became a sign but hasn’t run since the day it was parked around 78-79. I also have a photo copy of the original title issued in 1950.
It is very rough so I plan to just do little things at a time. Starting with getting the engine unstuck. After that I will get the starter rebuilt clean and rebuild the carb and replace the entire ignition system. Then hopefully I will have a runner. Does anyone know if there are print versions of repair manuals available anywhere. I have only been able to find online versions that don’t seem very helpful.
Also here’s a picture of the driver side of the engine

Attached Files
753BA913-3E37-44AA-B116-A864C22A092B.jpeg (302.02 KB, 171 downloads)

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309250 Thu May 02 2019 08:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I wrote another post yesterday with another picture and it never showed up on the thread


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309251 Thu May 02 2019 11:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I’ll try it again here’s the driver side of the engine.
The oil cap is missing since who knows when and some mice had taken up residence under the valve cover. So I’m thinking I’m going to pull the head to make sure nothing is in any of the cylinders and see how bad the rust is in there. So are the head bolts reusable?

Attached Files
C25FA675-FB43-43E6-A56D-F80C9249345D.jpeg (302.02 KB, 182 downloads)

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309259 Thu May 02 2019 01:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
If you want to know the casting year/years, and the original application, post the codes shown on this page:

1. Engine Serial Number
2. Block casting code
3. Block date casting code
4. Head casting code
5. Head date casting code

And the Vehicle Serial Number/ID on the plate on the cab between the driver's side door hinges.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309260 Thu May 02 2019 02:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
I have the same style motor only it is a Canadian 216. I reuse my head bolts and am careful to watch for any signs of the bolts yielding under torque.


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309262 Thu May 02 2019 02:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
The detail that identifies your engine is the shape of the head near the plugs. In the photo you can see a bulge in the casting between 1 and 2 plugs. That is distinct to the 1950 to 52 motor and that head doesn’t fit anything els.


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309275 Thu May 02 2019 04:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I will start looking for those codes today if I get home early enough I have the vin number on the title (AHEA123590) that’s what is printed on the original title and the current title


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309304 Thu May 02 2019 09:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
The stamped code on the block behind the distributor is the code that’s listed on the title as the vin AHEA123590 the cast code on the head by the valve cover on the driver side is 3895499 here’s a picture of it.
Where is the block casting code and date located? And where is the head casting date ? It’s greasy and I have to spray with brake cleaner and wire brush it to find casting marks

Attached Files
9D220440-0E44-44D4-9A85-D234EBB25766.jpeg (287.45 KB, 139 downloads)

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309306 Thu May 02 2019 09:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
"Where is the block casting code and date located? And where is the head casting date ? "

Are they not in the locations shown in the link that I posted, above?

This should help you decode your engine serial number:
1950 4400
Flint, MI engine plant
Loadmaster 235 Engine with RPO 225

Might the head casting code be 3835499?


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309312 Thu May 02 2019 11:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
It’s certainly possible it’s 383 !! I will clean it up better tomorrow.
I didn’t see the link until you pointed it out will also look for those codes tomorrow. I think I’m going to pull the head this weekend so I will find the head date code when I pull the valve cover


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309317 Thu May 02 2019 11:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
The 3835499 is the casting number on my 1951 216 head too. It now has a head with the US casting number because my original Canadian head was cracked. There is no date stamped on the head as far as I know.


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309321 Thu May 02 2019 11:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 246
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
head casting 3835499 is used in multiple part numbers and maybe machined differently - swap with caution
head casting 3835499 is used in part # 3835545 for a 235 engine 50-53 in USA, these are likely babbitt 235s
head casting 3835499 is used in part # xxxxxxx also found on Canadian 216 51 engines (block 3695408)
head casting 3835499 is used in part # 3703569 for a USA 54 261 engine


1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309323 Thu May 02 2019 11:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 246
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
from my head casting notes...
i don't know the specific differences
-s


1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309328 Fri May 03 2019 12:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Also the actual vin tag between the door hinges on the driver side door is long gone. You can see where it was I will take a picture of it tomorrow but there’s 2 holes one is most likely a screw hole the other has the remains of a pop rivet. So the true actual vin will likely never be determined. Unless someone knows of another place that was also marked


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309362 Fri May 03 2019 10:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
2ManyTrucks,
that is interesting information. The head that I put on my Canadian 216, came off a Canadian car with a 216 motor. Apparently there were times when parts crossed the border to keep production going. The difference in my case is that the intake ports that align with the manifold are the correct size for a 216, not a 235.


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309428 Fri May 03 2019 08:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Yikes !!! I hope this doesn’t lead to bigger problems under the head !

Attached Files
EFB76EB4-399E-43F5-B501-3B346F0A8D05.jpeg (445.77 KB, 143 downloads)
ECB5C78B-DFB0-4D09-A62B-3E716DFCC0A6.jpeg (452.37 KB, 142 downloads)

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309430 Fri May 03 2019 09:08 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,115
G
Grigg Offline
.
Don’t spend an unreasonable amount of time or money on it. Plenty of good Stovebolt engines available to swap in there. Later model 235 or better yet a 261 are good ideas.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309460 Sat May 04 2019 01:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Probably great advice ! However this is the engine that my truck was born with. I think I’m not going to stop unless there’s absolutely no hope it.


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309461 Sat May 04 2019 01:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
I think I see a big truck governor there. I have never seen one before. It is under the carburetor. Maybe someone could fill me in on that.

You made a whole family of mice homeless!


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309467 Sat May 04 2019 02:50 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,115
G
Grigg Offline
.
It may be the original engine, but still be reasonable about your intentions and options.
Perhaps it cost $3-6,000 to professionally rebuild. Or you may find a good replacement for well under $1,000.

I enjoy seeing all original trucks and restorations, I’m glad some people are that passionate and dedicated. There is a lot to learn from their research and efforts.
I’d also much rather see a good everyday driven truck with slight and or sensible upgrades than a half hearted “original restoration” that actually isn’t original.
Go all the way and be original or be practical (and drive it a whole lot), I don’t see much use for half way in between. I really enjoy driving old trucks, and 100% original isn’t necessary for that. Not saying you can’t drive an original as it is or fully restored to like original because they were new once and perfectly driveable then as now; but consider cost and rewards.

Decide what makes you happy and fix or restore your truck to suit. Also step back and reevaluate that plan a time or two along the way.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309479 Sat May 04 2019 11:02 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
My guess is you will find mouse pee and poop corrosion all the way to the oil pan down the oil drain holes and push rods. The rockers will all be frozen to the shaft, the bolts, push rods, valve springs, keepers and valves will all be corroded beyond use. The valves will likely be stuck tight in the guides. There very likely will be corrosion on the lifters, they may be stuck and the cam likely damaged.

Personally, I would not try too hard to salvage the head, certainly not the valve gear. IF the valves can be driven from the guides, its possible the bare head might be salvaged.

First thing I would do is pull the engine, I would not even think about taking it apart in the truck. To my mind that would be a total waste of time as it will all have to come apart, right down to the bare block. Every part will need to be inspected for rust damage.

There will be a lot of damage. Pretty sad to see that picture.

Last edited by sweepleader; Sat May 04 2019 11:04 AM.

1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309485 Sat May 04 2019 11:55 AM
Joined: Nov 1995
Posts: 4,161
John Milliman Offline
Founder/Developer
Just to echo/footstomp what Grigg said. I tried going the all-original route, too, once ...

The good news is that you have cured any boredom problem you may have had for the forseeable future -- looks like many, many,many hours of fun there.... smile

The best advice I've heard in situations like yours is to stop at this point and check with your State DMV to see what will be required to title and register this truck. Do not listen to anecdotes or stories or advice or any of it from anyone other than the professional staff at your DMV. Their answers will help you decide how much further you want to go with this project. You will no doubt have a bit of a project just to get the truck titled. Best you find out now, rather than after you've sunk a lot of money into.

THEN, once the DMV has helped you make an informed decision ...

Think long and hard about what your ultimate goal is for the truck (to help you decide how to proceed). A couple of thoughts to ponder (from my own painful experience...) It is best to decide now because down the road it will sure stink if you dumped a bunch of money into that 216 and decide that you really wish you could actually drive the truck to events or even just around town.



John

'49 Chevrolet 3804
'70 Boston Whaler Sakonnet w/ '84 Evinrude 90
'85 Ford F-350 "The Farm Dawg"

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309487 Sat May 04 2019 12:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I don’t know how long mice live. but over 40 years !! I’m guessing many generations of mice lived under that cover.
All hope definitely doesn’t mean a bottomless piggy bank. The engine is just the first thing I wanted to work on because weather it will run or it’s too far gone will determine the direction of the whole project. I haven’t posted pictures of the cab yet!!! It’s like Swiss cheese and would probably be discarded by many. These definitely are not a dime a dozen around my area. So I will work slowly and within my weekly budget to buy panels and parts.
I don’t appreciate the be cautious advice though. That’s why I am here I will need plenty of advice
Here’s some more pictures of the carburetor if you see anything out of the ordinary let me know!

Attached Files
4EF34266-2502-4682-8E73-81F6897FF55B.jpeg (266.76 KB, 101 downloads)
6A4C6430-D59A-4E62-A76A-863790CADC9E.jpeg (242.97 KB, 100 downloads)
46F00C19-AFA2-4C9F-8E81-83C1F924B716.jpeg (300.57 KB, 100 downloads)

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309489 Sat May 04 2019 12:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
John
No worries there as of yet. It is titled. But it’s titled to the serial number of the block. Even on the original title which I have a copy of. So I do have to find out about how to change that if the block is shot. And I do agree it very likely is but I haven’t gotten into it yet


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309514 Sat May 04 2019 02:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
Yes, (as you indicated) when you title it by the original block, ask your DMV what you should do when you change the block.

See if you can get their instructions in writing, and/or, send them a registered letter with your understanding of their instructions.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309525 Sat May 04 2019 04:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 246
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
Well don’t get too down until you got solid data...
I needed a 235 temporary replacement for my original 216, the best candidate in my junk car pile was an engine that last ran in 1980,
After removing a gallon of cherry pits and mice nests, from inside, I gas washed the rockers and valves and oil pan, sprayed oil on it, hammered all the valves free with wd-40, pounded some bent push rods straight-er...
And that’s the engine I’ve been running for about 3 summers now. It leaks coolant out the side of the casting a bit, this engine also froze a bit with water in it one fall back in the late 70s, I’m gonna use jbweld to seal that up one of these days.
-s


1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309572 Sat May 04 2019 11:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,879
truckernix Offline
Master Gabster
I will say that getting an old motor unstuck and getting it running is one of the most fun filled things I have ever done. My truck sat in a field for over 17 years and I got it going. It didn't have nests inside but it was stuck at first.I did an in place rebuild and put about 40K miles on it. Last year I pulled it, had the block tanked and bored and it is like new.


1951 GMC 1 Ton Flatbed -- It is finally on the road and what a great time I have driving it!
1951 1 Ton Completed


My Chevy Master 4 Door is on the Road!
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309576 Sun May 05 2019 12:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I did a little more inspection today after work. The rockers are very rusty to the point of rust is scaling off them I think the head has rusted itself into one solid piece I really don’t know if I’ll even be able to remove the head bolts. Going to clean the rest of the mouse hotel tomorrow after work and try removing the bolts before I even start with the manifold bolts.


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309945 Tue May 07 2019 02:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Ok I think I have decided on the path this truck is going to go on after a week of thinking and discovery !
It’s probably going to be a few weeks before I can get it into the shop as my son and his buddy are working on a 97 mustang. So I’m going to leave the truck out behind the barn until then, and just keep spraying every nut and bolt with penetrating oil every day or so hopefully that will help with some of the worst bolts.
In the meantime lots of research and questions!!
I’m still looking for a repair manual anyone have an opinion on where to find the best one ?
Here’s a picture of the rear anyone know what the bent up bracket is ? Im thinking it was a spare tire holder but not to sure !

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309949 Tue May 07 2019 03:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
The 1947-1951/52 Chevrolet Truck Shop Manual is on-line.
It is also available in reproduction (hardcopy & CD-ROM) from many parts vendors.

You might want to visit the Tech Tips section (on top-line menu above). Lot of good advice and information there (especially in Getting Started).


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309950 Tue May 07 2019 03:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
My bad/wrong guess is that bent bar is an "add-on".

You have a few good dents in the frame members, too?

Last edited by tclederman; Tue May 07 2019 04:22 PM. Reason: Bad guess

Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309956 Tue May 07 2019 03:38 PM
Joined: Nov 1995
Posts: 4,161
John Milliman Offline
Founder/Developer
The bent up bar *is/was* one of two that held the spare tire there.


John

'49 Chevrolet 3804
'70 Boston Whaler Sakonnet w/ '84 Evinrude 90
'85 Ford F-350 "The Farm Dawg"

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1309992 Tue May 07 2019 11:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
There is a add on to the frame of about 20” I assume it was for the sign that it carried for 40 years. Yes the rear crossmember is bent down a little that can easily be straightened. The main frame rails appear to be very straight and in very good condition.
John,
I really think it looks like that bent up piece was a spare tire carrier but I see no evidence of a missing second piece.


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1310033 Wed May 08 2019 01:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
The rear spare tire bracket more than likely hung on two stud (with big wing nuts) that attached to the side of the frame rails (that's the way it is on the TF trucks).

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1310068 Wed May 08 2019 08:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,613
F
Frank50 Offline
Shop Shark
Do take all necessary precautions while handling/cleaning animal waste/ mice pee/poop. You don't want the hantavirus.

As much as I love old Chevy trucks, frankly there's not much left to love with that one. Major mechanical parts, body panels, hired body work, hired mechanical work, all the small stuff, etc... add up over time. The best advice I ever heard as it relates to any old car/truck, collector vehicle... is buy the best example of what you want that you can afford. Dragging one home from the fencerow is kinda romantic, but usually takes too long and cost too much.

Of course I'm just some guy with a keyboard. It's your truck. Do what you want to do - but do it safely.

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1310312 Sat May 11 2019 01:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
What terms do you use when searching for a 235 on like a Craigslist or searchtempest or something like that. I don’t have much luck searching Craigslist. I usually use like Chevy 235 of Chevy 235 engine or something along those lines.


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1310715 Tue May 14 2019 07:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,613
F
Frank50 Offline
Shop Shark
What you mention has worked for me. Any combination/arrangement of Chevy 235 engine should get some hits. You may have to widen your search.

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1310740 Tue May 14 2019 10:19 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
The current owner might not know what a 235 is, that is working against you. You might try "Chevrolet 6 cylinder" with the years you are interested in. You might have to buy an entire or partial vehicle.


1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311589 Thu May 23 2019 03:18 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 3
B
B.Kelley Offline
New Guy
I like ecklers classic Chevy for parts and they have books as well. The shop manual and user manual are very informative and worth having. The engine size however is difficult given you're not very good on the internet, the best way is to find the serial number stamped on the block behind the distributor and look it up on the Web. I have been told that if you have the original oil pan, a 235 will have 235 stamped on the side of the oil pan. Another great place for parts is NAPA, at least my local Napa is very informative and usually has what I need in stock. Great looking truck by the way, I have 51 4400.

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311855 Sat May 25 2019 12:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
New question..
it is my understanding that it is not possible to regear the stock rearend. Is that correct? So if I want to keep it a dually is there any certain axle I should be looking for that will fit the best or is it more personal preference?
I have been giving every nut and bolt I can see anywhere a blast of pb blaster every week for the last few weeks as well as dosing the cylinders with atf acetone mixture. But I really don’t hold out much hope that my 235 will ever turn again. It’s very possible that the replacement engine will have a few more cylinders than the current engine.
I’m hoping to be able to get it into my shop within the next few weeks to begin the diagnosis of what it still serviceable on my truck and begin to firm up my plans a little more


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311869 Sat May 25 2019 02:27 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,115
G
Grigg Offline
.
Before answering about regearing you need to know the present ratio. But the answer, even if yes, is still not very fast.

GM used Dana 70HD and Dana 80 axles in later model P30 and similar chassis. These axles from those applications have same bolt pattern (but larger 5.25” center bore). They are also available in useful ratios as well as even faster that you could use. Down side is they only have disc brakes, which then requires swapping to front disc brakes too, so more work and expense.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311889 Sat May 25 2019 08:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
How do I identify the current gear ratio? There are no plates anywhere I guess I have to wait until I can remove the diff to see. I don’t really want to do a front axle swap too. Wow lots of things I didn’t think of !!!


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311899 Sat May 25 2019 01:05 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,115
G
Grigg Offline
.
You may find some useful info in the Tech Tips section of this site, link at very top of page, or here
https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/

One of those is about the P-30 rear axle swap.
https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/bigbolts/p30swap/

A more approachable front brake upgrade (than in the above tech tip) can be found here, sticky thread in the Big Bolts section.
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...4-1-1-5-and-2-ton-trucks.html#Post725572

You can find the gear ratio by counting turns of the driveshaft and wheels, don't need to disassemble anything.
First assume it has a standard differential, no locking device. If that is the case (should be for your model) then leave one wheel on the ground, jack up the other and because of the differential action the wheel that turns will turn twice as fast than if both turn.
Turn the one wheel 20 times and count turns of the driveshaft. Divide the result by 10 for your gear ratio, for example 61.7 turns of driveshaft is 6.17:1 ratio. Others may advise to only turn the wheel once, or turn both wheels together once.. the method I have described is both easier and more accurate.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311945 Sun May 26 2019 12:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Thanks Grigg
I have read everything in the big bolt section of the tech tips but probably should reread some of the write ups again. I have no shortage of ideas on what I want to do with my truck. Probably doesn’t help that it’s still sitting behind the barn and not in the shop yet. Soon !!


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1311955 Sun May 26 2019 02:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,799
E
EdPruss Offline
Shop Shark
Jack up one wheel, count driveshaft revolutions vs. axle revolutions to get axle ratio.

Ed


'37 GMC T-18 w/ DD 4-53T, RTO-610, 6231 aux., '95 GMC running gear, full disc brakes, power steering, 22.5 wheels and tires.
'47 GMC 1 ton w/ 302, NP-540, 4wd, full width Blazer front axle.
'54 GMC 630 w/ 503 gasser, 5 speed, ex fire truck, shortened WB 4', install 8' bed.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: EdPruss] #1312090 Mon May 27 2019 03:53 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,361
K
klhansen Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by EdPruss
Jack up one wheel, count driveshaft revolutions vs. axle revolutions to get axle ratio.

Ed

Don't forget to allow for the fact that only one wheel is turning. The spider gears in the differential will cause the driveshaft to turn only half as many turns as if both wheels were turning together.


Kevin
First car '29 Ford Special Coupe
#2 - '29 Ford pickup restored from the ground up.
Newest Project - 51 Chevy 3100 work truck. Photos
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1312124 Tue May 28 2019 12:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Does anyone know anything about the early 90’s ups chassis? I found one for sale cheap close to me I’m going to see about looking at it tomorrow. It’s listed as a 1993 ups chassis made by Chevy
Dan


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1312126 Tue May 28 2019 12:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
I bet it has a million miles or more on the chassis...UPS runs the wheels off of then before they let them go!

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1312136 Tue May 28 2019 01:29 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,115
G
Grigg Offline
.
I thought UPS didn’t let them go? They part them out and scrap or rebuild them in house?

In any case can’t say anything about how useful those parts may be without seeing it. Is it dual or single wheel?


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1312198 Tue May 28 2019 03:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
It’s a dually. Seller claims it’s a 93 ups chassis and he doesn’t know anything else about it.
He’s selling it so cheap a scraper will probably get it before I have a chance to.

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1312228 Tue May 28 2019 06:04 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,115
G
Grigg Offline
.
Well it is not your original bolt pattern.
I'd guess from the small picture that it has 6 lug Budd (stud centered) wheels. Also suspect it is not a GM chassis, not that it matters. Oshoksh and perhaps some others did use that bolt pattern for step van chassis.

Without a good plan already I'd pass on that chassis. Then figure out what you're trying to do with the truck and make a reasonable plan.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1312257 Tue May 28 2019 11:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Yup I didn’t even get a chance to go see it. I’m not dying to pull the trigger on something I’m more trying to get an idea of what’s available out in my area and what could work.
There seems to be no lack of knowledge here on how to identify things and what could work.
You guys are great!!!
Dan


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1316367 Wed Jul 03 2019 11:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Found this close to home seller says it’s a 235 but doesn’t know anything about it what can you guys tell from this one picture

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1316369 Wed Jul 03 2019 11:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
Find and post engine ID info shown on this page.

It could be either a 216 or low pressure 235. The 235 might have been standard equipment on that size truck.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317144 Tue Jul 09 2019 11:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Well I picked up an engine yesterday. Seller says it’s a 235 I’m not positive yet thou I’ll take some pictures tomorrow and post them. I have to power wash it it is very heavily caked with grease, oil and dirt I did get the serial number by the distributor it is. Gea71700. After I clean it up I will pull the valve cover to get the head numbers and look for any other numbers on it. It was supposedly running when pulled and it had clean green coolant leaking from it when I loaded it up. I’m going to have my starter guy rewire the starter to 12v and get a whole new ignition system before I try starting it as the wires are not in very good condition at all. Any opinions on points vs hei ignition ? Was looking at the Jim carter hei setup but don’t know if it’s necessary.


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317146 Wed Jul 10 2019 12:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
GEA is a 1949 preface for a low pressure 235 engine (used on big trucks).

Post the codes that you find at the locations shown on this page.

Does it have a two bolt valve cover?


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317168 Wed Jul 10 2019 02:18 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
While it is not necessary by any means, the HEI is a great system, I am a true believer. I put one on a Clark aircraft tug I use to have with a Hercules engine, converted to 12v of course. I did nothing to the starter as it never ran for more than about 5 seconds after the conversion. The conversion made a really useful unit out of the tug, a long way from 6 volt, points starting. If you are going to 12v anyway, the HEI is a no brainer for me. It will be painfully obvious to on-lookers where the 12v would not if you retain the generator. On the tug I just reset the regulator for 12v, didn't change anything else besides the lights and battery.


1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317211 Wed Jul 10 2019 12:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,799
E
EdPruss Offline
Shop Shark
To emphasize the above comment, just use the existing 6 volt starter as is, no 'rewiring for 12 volts' or replacing with a 12 volt starter which also requires a different flywheel.

Ed


'37 GMC T-18 w/ DD 4-53T, RTO-610, 6231 aux., '95 GMC running gear, full disc brakes, power steering, 22.5 wheels and tires.
'47 GMC 1 ton w/ 302, NP-540, 4wd, full width Blazer front axle.
'54 GMC 630 w/ 503 gasser, 5 speed, ex fire truck, shortened WB 4', install 8' bed.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317265 Wed Jul 10 2019 10:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Yes it is a 2 bolt valve cover. It has a carter w 1 carb on it. Was going to get some better pictures and fine the other numbers but it’s to hot and I worked to late today so hopefully tomorrow I did get the transmission with it also so I have a spare trans and clutch if I ever need them !
I think I’m leaning towards the hei ignition. Anyone have a preferred setup ? I know many just leave the starter setup for 6v but why not get it redone while it’s easy to get at !! My starter guy is also going to rewire the generator for me ! I think I’ll be ordering parts in the next few days.
Dan


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317269 Wed Jul 10 2019 11:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,616
Justhorsenround Offline
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
I believe since it has a 2 bolt valve cover it will be the low pressure 235 as Tim posted. 🛠


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)


"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line" and lock up those on the wrong side of that line.

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317270 Wed Jul 10 2019 11:50 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
The only change you need to make for the generator to charge a 12v batter is reset the regulator. There are three "relays" inside the housing, a cutout, a current regulator, and a voltage regulator. There will be a screw adjustment or a tab holding the spring on the voltage regulator that you can adjust to set the voltage to just about anything within reason and 14.3 or so for charging should be no problem. All the wires stay the same. With 12v on a 6v system, all the wires are oversized and will carry things more easily, no need to change them.

A web search for "voltage regulator adjustment Chevrolet 6v" hits about 6 threads on this forum. Those instructions work to reset for 12v too.


1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317273 Thu Jul 11 2019 12:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
And that my friend is why I love this forum so much. you fellas are a wealth of knowledge!!! I Had no idea it was that easy to change the generator ! I was probably going to pay my starter guy $30 to do it

Thank you!
Dan


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317280 Thu Jul 11 2019 01:15 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
A meter and a screw driver are all you need for tools usually. They used to make special tools for bending the tab but you can do that with a needle nose pliers. It takes just a touch, very little movement to get where you want to go. At least one of the threads mentions to set the cover carefully in place and check the adjustments, the steel cover does affect the magnetic adjustments.

Last edited by sweepleader; Thu Jul 11 2019 01:15 AM.

1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317328 Thu Jul 11 2019 11:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
That is very interesting.

Does that mean there is no need to get a 12v voltage regulator when changing from a 6v to 12v generator.
As long as you changed the 6v voltage regulator setting?

And, I assume you should still polarize the voltage regulator? (as described in the Shop Manual)


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317333 Thu Jul 11 2019 12:16 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
Yes, it means the 6v regulator will become a 12v regulator, the 6v gen will work fine on 12v. If the gen is worked on or removed from the vehicle, it should be polarized as the manual describes.

There is no need to change any parts in the charging system.

The ignition system and all other electrical devices will need to be updated. Depending on the ignition system installed, several changes may be necessary, including a ballast resistor, the coil, condenser, starter relay(solenoid). The starter will be fine on 12v but if there is a relay it will need to be compatible with 12v and the ballast resistor wiring. A relay may need to be added to address the ballast resistor issue. If the engine starts fine and is not started in the cold, the relay might not be needed. The condenser and ballast resistor need to be matched to the coil.


1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317783 Mon Jul 15 2019 02:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
The power washer and degreaser didn’t really do that much to get my engine cleaned up looks like I may need a case or two of brake cleaner or carb cleaner and some wire brushes to get things cleaned up. I was able to get some of the numbers for the head and block here’s pictures. The head doesn’t have any casting numbers outside of the valve cover ? Why is that ? I also couldn’t find any numbers near the starter on the block maybe I have to remove the starter and clean the grime up better. The grease and oil is so baked on the engine it resembles creosote. The valve train has a lot of sludge buildup. I’m going to clean that up and change the oil and I believe it should start. I’m wondering what oil most of you use ?

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317792 Mon Jul 15 2019 03:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
Engine Serial Number: GEA717

This Serial Number ID page from the spec. manual is hard to read.

However, assuming that is an original code (and, it looks original):
GEA = 1949 5000 or 6000 series low-pressure 235 truck engine
717 = should be a number larger than 1000?; but, let's assume it means the 717th 235 out the Flint, MI engine plant in 1949?

I cannot clearly read your head casting codes.
head date casting code is under the valve cover.
head casting code is outside the valve cover.
Please post those two codes-numbers.


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: tclederman] #1317809 Mon Jul 15 2019 07:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by tclederman
Engine Serial Number: 717 = should be a number larger than 1000?; but, let's assume it means the 717th 235 out the Flint, MI engine plant in 1949?[/url]


It looks like 71700 to me...

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317821 Mon Jul 15 2019 08:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
Yes, I see that now, Mike - thanks

71700 - 1000 = 70700th engine out of that engine plant

That look/seem right, Mike?

Would that be for all engines (216 and 235) or just 235 engines?


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317825 Mon Jul 15 2019 08:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Yes it is 71700 !
There is no head casting code outside the valve cover. Why would this be ? The date code on the head is A 17 9


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317827 Mon Jul 15 2019 08:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
Mike, or others, is my photo wrong for the head casting code?

A 17 9 (head date casting code)
A = January
17 = 17th
9 = 1949


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317876 Tue Jul 16 2019 02:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
The head casting code is in the proper place on my original seized engine. I’m going to completely clean up the head and valve train tomorrow but I don’t think I’m going to find anything as I’ve scratched around with a scraper and some cleaner looking for the missing casting code. The casting dates of the block and the heads seem to match up but is it possible that this head is a replacement?


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: tclederman] #1317879 Tue Jul 16 2019 02:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by tclederman
71700 - 1000 = 70700th engine out of that engine plant

That look/seem right, Mike?

Would that be for all engines (216 and 235) or just 235 engines?


Yes that's correct Tim, they started with 1001 as the first engine out of both plants...GEA was made in Flint.

The serial numbers were stamped consecutively regardless of the engine code.

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: tclederman] #1317881 Tue Jul 16 2019 02:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by tclederman
Mike, or others, is my photo wrong for the head casting code?

A 17 9 (head date casting code)
A = January
17 = 17th
9 = 1949


Tim, I can't help with casting number locations on 6-cylinder heads...sorry, but the date code you decoded is correct.

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317882 Tue Jul 16 2019 02:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by Dcurtis
but is it possible that this head is a replacement?


I don't think it's a replacement with a Jan 1949 cast date.

Curious to know why you think it could be a replacement?

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1317996 Tue Jul 16 2019 09:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Well I don’t necessarily think it’s a replacement head. Just was thinking maybe it could be since the casting numbers are missing. But no worries! I spent some time and 10 cans of carb cleaner and cleaned up the valve train and top of the head of all the sludge and 70 years of buildup. I found the casting numbers 3835409

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318002 Tue Jul 16 2019 10:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
3835409 = 1949 216/235 head


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318003 Tue Jul 16 2019 10:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 246
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
head casting 3835409 is used in part # 3835408 for 1949 engines and listed as replacement head for all engines 41-49 216 and 235 engines as of 1949, in 1950 a newer replacement head is listed in place.
This head has non-45 degree exhaust valves, compatible if swapping whole head assembly w/ valves
This head has 14 mm spark plugs, but may have been machined for 10 mm spark plugs in early years, not sure.


1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318186 Thu Jul 18 2019 03:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Ok on to the next step with this new engine! Cleaned the valve train oil has been changed the fuel pump is working there’s spark but no start! This engine has a carter w-1 carburetor on it I have a Rochester on the original engine. It is my understanding that the w-1 isn’t the best carb ! Is that correct? I think in in need of a carb rebuild kit so what carb should I be rebuilding? The Rochester or the carter.

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318189 Thu Jul 18 2019 03:21 AM
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Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Will it run with a little gas poured into the carb? It should at least kick a few times if you have spark and the timing is close...

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318226 Thu Jul 18 2019 12:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,616
Justhorsenround Offline
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
Are you 100% sure your timing is right?


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)


"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line" and lock up those on the wrong side of that line.

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318266 Thu Jul 18 2019 05:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I’m not 100% sure of anything!!! Maybe it was just a illusion but I thought I saw spark I checked again this morning there’s no spark everything looks like it’s hooked up properly so maybe bad coil or condenser? Either way it turns over great going to get a compression tester to check the compression and order a new ignition system from Langdon’s going to get a carb kit to but still not sure if I should rebuild the carter of the Rochester? Any opinions on that ?


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318274 Thu Jul 18 2019 05:59 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
No spark or questionable spark, I always clean the points with a points file, (available at NAPA or anywhere parts are sold), and then set them to factory specs. If the distributor has not been moved in recent history, I would leave the timing alone to see if the engine would run. If spark is good but no fire, I would prime the carb with a couple tablespoons of gas right down the throat (like Mike said ^), close the choke and crank. IF spark is bad, then I would go for new parts.

Last edited by sweepleader; Fri Jul 19 2019 12:00 PM.

1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318328 Fri Jul 19 2019 01:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I pulled the Rochester off the seized engine this evening to clean it up and check out its condition this was under it attached to the manifold. What is it ?

Attached Files

Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318330 Fri Jul 19 2019 02:06 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
Governor, will have a tube to the distributor.


1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318408 Fri Jul 19 2019 05:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Well I wonder what purpose it served on there ?

It seems the Rochester carb from the 50 is probably not any good the throttle shaft is seized in the carb body. I’ve had it soaking in mineral spirits in my parts cleaner since yesterday. I will probably give it a few more days before I give up on. The carter also is nearly seized the throttle shaft and the choke are very stiff I may be able to get them freed up thou. If I have to get a new carb it seems there’s plenty of options available but I’m wondering what you guys that have had to replace yours have tried


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318418 Fri Jul 19 2019 06:12 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
If it was my carb, I would be tapping on the shaft to try to get it to move. That is exactly what I had to do with the carb on my '62 when I let it sit long enough for the mice to build a nest. I would pull the throttle plate if I could get at the screws to grind the back end off, they are peened to prevent them falling into the engine. I would tap the shaft endwise and sideways all around and both ends. The rust/corrosion usually yields to physical force but of course so do the shaft and the bore it goes through, use caution.


1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318422 Fri Jul 19 2019 06:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
The bore is exactly what I was worried about ! If it’s corroded so bad I can’t move it at all the bore is already going to be damaged. I don’t have a drill press good enough to drill for bushings. Maybe it’s time to acquire a new pedestal drill press!!


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318424 Fri Jul 19 2019 06:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I do definitely plan on dissecting it thou. Even if I can’t save it I always love learning how things work


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318430 Fri Jul 19 2019 07:13 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 151
S
sweepleader Offline
Shop Shark
Just because it is stuck does not mean that automatically the bore is bad. It could be stuck in one small place and the rest could be fine. Check it out before you plan on it being bad.

The governor limited the top engine speed to something like 3500 or 4000 rpm to prevent running it too fast with a very deep rear end gear. Check the base of the distributor for the vacuum control that feeds the servo under the carb. The governor is really not needed if you watch the engine speed, something that employees driving someone else's truck and paid by the load tend to do poorly at. The governor throttle plate is visible in the pictures, it is independent of the manual throttle in the carb.

Last edited by sweepleader; Fri Jul 19 2019 07:15 PM.

1962 K10 short step side, much modified for rally
1969 T50 fire truck, almost nos, needs a few things
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318433 Fri Jul 19 2019 07:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
The throttle plate on the governor is free too ! However there is nothing attached to it. I will take a better look at the distributor to see if there’s anything extra on it !


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318594 Sun Jul 21 2019 01:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Well after a long soak in mineral spirits then about an hour in the ultrasonic cleaner I was able to free the throttle shaft on the Rochester the whole thing is disassembled except 1 problem has arose. The jet is not coming out it is loose it just turns so it seems the threads are torn loose from the float bowl body. I don’t think there’s a repair for that is there ? Guess I’ll start working on the carter tomorrow see what I can do with that one.
What is the typical response time for langdons ? I put an email in last Wednesday about getting an hei ignition system from him and still haven’t gotten a reply. I guess I’ll try again Monday if I haven’t heard from him by then. I do believe he is located in my area but I can’t tell if there’s a storefront or if he’s just online


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318596 Sun Jul 21 2019 02:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,616
Justhorsenround Offline
Grease Monkey, Moderator General Truck Talk & Greasy Spoon
586-739-9601 Monday-Friday 11am to 7pm EST


Martin
'62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress)
'47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project)


"I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one!
Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line" and lock up those on the wrong side of that line.

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318599 Sun Jul 21 2019 02:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,799
E
EdPruss Offline
Shop Shark
Now would be a good time to remove the valve cover, perhaps you already did, to oil all the valve stems and push down on them to make sure they are not stuck before you try to turn the engine over. If they are stuck, pushrods will be bent.

If stuck, soaking and gentle tapping will help, however, if the mice have been helping you out, it might take some gentle heating.

Good luck.

Ed


'37 GMC T-18 w/ DD 4-53T, RTO-610, 6231 aux., '95 GMC running gear, full disc brakes, power steering, 22.5 wheels and tires.
'47 GMC 1 ton w/ 302, NP-540, 4wd, full width Blazer front axle.
'54 GMC 630 w/ 503 gasser, 5 speed, ex fire truck, shortened WB 4', install 8' bed.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1318713 Sun Jul 21 2019 11:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
After looking on the online diagram of the Rochester b I discovered I was wrong it isn’t the jet that was stuck it was the guide for the spring of the pump discharge ball I did get it removed but it is broken and I don’t see anywhere I can get a replacement. I’m going to email mikes carburetor parts if I can’t locate one because it seems like that’s the only thing holding me back from rebuilding the B. The power has been out at my place since yesterday from storms so I didn’t get anywhere on the carter today hopefully tomorrow!


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1326417 Mon Sep 16 2019 09:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Things are moving slowly because of my work schedule and other obligations. I’m working on getting the engine stripped down to clean it and paint it. I’m thinking maybe I should replace the freeze plugs as they are at the least very old. Looks like the are available at many places who has had the best luck with what plugs ? Also I’m wondering if the governor is necessary? Can I remove it and be ok ? Or should I clean it up and reinstall it.


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1326418 Mon Sep 16 2019 09:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
1950 235 truck engine freeze plugs?

Rockauto.com?


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1326419 Mon Sep 16 2019 09:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,460
tclederman Offline
Boltergeist
"Also I’m wondering if the governor is necessary? Can I remove it and be ok ? Or should I clean it up and reinstall it."

You should be able to remove the governor.
You might have to adjust carburetor linkage rods/etc.

Use a bakelite carburetor spacer and the correct gasket with opening in the gasket oritated to the opening on the base of the carb.

Wait to hear from a Big Truck owner - it has been a long while since I removed a governor,


Tim
1954Advance-Design.com
1954 3106 Carryall Suburban - part of the family for 48 years
1954 3104 5-window pickup w/Hydra-Matic - part of the family for 14 years
Z-series (54/55) GMC 350 (2-ton) COE - now part of Dave's family
- If you have to stomp on your foot-pedal starter, either you, or your starter, or your engine, has a problem.
- The 216 and early 235 engine are not "splash oilers" - this is a splash oiler.
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1326420 Mon Sep 16 2019 09:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Tim the engine is a 1949 235. I did see the plugs on rock auto they are definitely the cheapest!


Dan
Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1326422 Mon Sep 16 2019 09:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,867
M
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
The governor helps to keep you from over reving the engine when shifting up through the lower gears. If it works I'd keep it...

Mike B smile

Re: 1950 4400 [Re: Dcurtis] #1326652 Wed Sep 18 2019 12:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 52
D
Dcurtis Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Mike- I’m not sure if it works or not. The butterfly moves freely. Not sure the condition of the inner workings. I guess I can just clean it up and reinstall it.
Thanks for the input !!


Dan
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