The Stovebolt Page Forums Home | FAQ | Forum | Swap Meet | Gallery | Tech Tips | Events | Features | Search | Hoo-Ya Shop
Work those trucks!




Share what you're up to this summer!

Stovebolt Site Search
 
Old Truck Calendars
Months of truck photos!
Nothing like an old truck calendar

Stovebolt Calendars

Check for details!


Who's Online Now
10 registered members (DennisM, 68ironhead, HandyAndy, Mike Roache, canuck49, archburycontrol), 194 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums47
Topics115,723
Posts919,625
Members42,320
Most Online940
Apr 5th, 2017
Image Posting Policy
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Widow maker rims #1306820 Fri Apr 12 2019 01:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Looking to change a few tires. How crazy do I need to be to try this myself. 59 3800 Apache. Obviously I have never taken apart a split rim aka widow maker. Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306824 Fri Apr 12 2019 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,071
W
Wrenchbender Ret. Offline
Master Gabster
Show us a photo of the rims. All multi piece wheels are not "widow makers". You can do them yourself with the proper tools.
George


They say money can't buy happiness. It can buy old Chevy trucks though. Same thing.

1956 Chevy 1/2-Ton Pickup

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306830 Fri Apr 12 2019 03:05 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.
Some info on the split rims and pictures from catalogs of the many types in this tech tip.
https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/wheels/


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306845 Fri Apr 12 2019 04:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Cool I will checkout the tech tip . I haven’t tried to put photos on this site yet but will get on it. Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306848 Fri Apr 12 2019 04:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
The rims are the 2 piece rim with the rounded front shoulder or collar and also a lock ring which looks to be a 1/2 “ wide sitting to the inside of the collar. I hope this helps. Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306851 Fri Apr 12 2019 05:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 232
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
Hi can216,
You said two piece but then described a three piece rim,
Does it look like the attached photo ?
If it does that’s a firestone type AR three piece rim I think.
I’m pretty sure the widow maker is a two piece rim that locks in the center of the wheel.
I have a diagram of all the common types somewhere, if I find it I’ll post it here.
-s

Attached Files

1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306852 Fri Apr 12 2019 05:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 232
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
Google image found something good enough
Attached, bottom right is the widow maker that gave all other multi piece rims a bad rap.
If I’m mistaken someone should chime in and correct me
-s

Attached Files

1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306858 Fri Apr 12 2019 06:49 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.
The above diagram is also in the further above linked tech tip.

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306898 Sat Apr 13 2019 01:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Yes mine is like the type ar . Some what like it. 3 pieces yes. The large rim the smaller rim lip and the square rod . Now the second piece I describe the middle sized rim lip . This piece is not shaped as in the sketch. It is shaped like the bottom right of the type r. Like a round bulb. Also the photo I believe is the type ar. My rim is an 8 bolt with a center hole and 8 roughly 3” holes around the outer edge. I will try adding a photo

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306908 Sat Apr 13 2019 02:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Ok found a photo in the gallery. Under 55-59 .medium to heavy trucks. Mike 69 cuda gramanns 1955 Chevy 2nd series two ton flatbed. This is the same rim style as I have. Thanks when my kids get home they will need to set me up for photos.

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306964 Sat Apr 13 2019 05:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
If i’m Correct . It looks to me that I have a Kelsey-Hayes wheel with wide base rim. 1 Ton Dually . Wk-4 or wk-4a

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1306992 Sat Apr 13 2019 11:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 232
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
oh that makes sense, i have 17 inch wk-4 looking rims on a 1960 GMC and they have a round shape on the ring near the bead and not flat like the older chevy truck rims
the photo attached isn't too great, but you can sorta tell the rim is round near the bead
-s

Attached Files
1960_GMC.jpg (101.54 KB, 202 downloads)

1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307002 Sun Apr 14 2019 01:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
That’s a cool truck. With the Stepside. I also had the same combine at one time. Unfortunately ha ha.

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307030 Sun Apr 14 2019 03:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 232
2
2ManyTrucks Offline
Shop Shark
That 860 is the “good” combine, the 760 is the in the parts pile, the birds love making nests in it tho so that’s a plus
-s


1430s, 1420, 9430
-2MT
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307043 Sun Apr 14 2019 12:01 PM
Joined: Nov 1995
Posts: 4,141
John Milliman Offline
Founder/Developer
Just a thought about dealing with aged multi-piece wheels.... If they have not been taken apart in a long time, they will not be easy to break down. I recently attempted to break down my 3-piece wheels (it's only been about 25 years since they were last apart ...). To skip a long description, I tried every tool I have (bead breaking tool up to the 8,000-lb Massey Ferguson tractor driving over the tire. Bead would not separate from the wheel. Forget THAT.

Luckly, we have a non-chain, locally owned and operated tire shop in town here that deals with big trucks, farm/excavating equipment, etc. I took the wheels to them and they had all six broken down in a day. Charged me about $15 a wheel.

So sure, you can probably do it yourself, but if you have a good tire shop in town, why on earth would you want to?

And then, after you get them apart ... then what? Can you make the call as to whether or not they would be safe to use again? Do you know how to put it all back together so they don't come back apart under pressure? Or when you hit a pot hole?

They truly are as simple as they look, but some things are best left to the pros.


*** wave And asking Wrenchbender if it's possible to do is like asking Chuck Yeager if its hard to fly an airplane. [elvis]


John

'49 Chevrolet 3804
'70 Boston Whaler Sakonnet w/ '84 Evinrude 90
'85 Ford F-350 "The Farm Dawg"

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307076 Sun Apr 14 2019 06:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,825
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
Dealing with multi-piece rims is sort of like bailing out of an airplane that's in the process of crashing- - - - -doing it right the first time isn't just a good choice- - - -it's the ONLY choice! You probably won't live long enough to regret your error! I've been tinkering with big rig tube type wheels since the 1960's, and there are all sorts of little things the pros do, and little wheel condition details they notice that make the difference between a safe, easy job and one that can ruin (or end) your life!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307134 Mon Apr 15 2019 12:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 240
M
Mother.Trucker Offline
Shop Shark
2 piece rims are the ones that have earned the name of "widow makers"..... I don't mess with those as they are inherently dangerous because they do not incorporate a dedicated lock ring to hold everything together.


I disagree with all of the paranoia surrounding 3 piece multi rims that use a dedicated lock ring between the rim & the outer rim flange ring.

As long as you use common sense there is no need to fear 3 piece multi piece rims.

I just put a set of new 8 1/4" X 20 " tires , tubes & flaps on the original rims of my 54 COE.... & the breakdown, restoration & assembly went smoothly.


Attached Files
coe1.jpg (34.09 KB, 135 downloads)
coe3.jpg (29.76 KB, 135 downloads)
coe5.JPG (39.78 KB, 134 downloads)
coe6.jpg (29.04 KB, 134 downloads)
coe21.jpg (140.22 KB, 134 downloads)
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307137 Mon Apr 15 2019 12:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 240
M
Mother.Trucker Offline
Shop Shark
Don't get me wrong.... Multi piece rims can be dangerous if you are a dummy & you don't know how to work on them using standard safety procedures...But you really have to work at it to achieve a dangerous situation with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2exMOT0-9M


.

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307148 Mon Apr 15 2019 02:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,825
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
I notice your rims are clean, rust-free, and are being assembled and inflated in a safe environment. I'm going to assume you're also using a safety cage during the inflation process? A wheel that's been sitting on a derelict truck half-buried in a mudhole for 10 years and then gets some air put to it to inflate a half-flat tire is the one that can get deadly, no matter what the design might be. I've seen a few idiots pull a stunt like that and get away with it, but the law of averages will eventually catch up to them.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: Hotrod Lincoln] #1307152 Mon Apr 15 2019 03:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 240
M
Mother.Trucker Offline
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
I'm going to assume you're also using a safety cage during the inflation process?


My old school tire guy runs a large truck mobile tire service business & he is used to beating 22.5'' tires off of the rims of large commercial trucks on the side of the road with nothing but a big sledge hammer, a pry bar & a spray bottle of soapy water.... needless to say, mounting my COE tires were a piece of cake for him.

No safety cage was used but there was one at the shop. My tire guy told me he wasn't worried 'cause my rim components were properly prepared. He aired them up while they were laying on the ground... which takes me back to all the false paranoia surrounding 3 piece rims.







Which reminds me of this gem.... this is how todays "Highly Trained ASE Certified Mechanics" use the safety cage LOL



Attached Files
Tire Safety Cage.jpg (45.27 KB, 114 downloads)
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307154 Mon Apr 15 2019 03:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,825
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
"Different Strokes- - - - -etc." My tire guy back in the late 1980's wasn't worried, either. He needed a closed casket funeral because there was nothing left of his head above the eyebrows.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307177 Mon Apr 15 2019 01:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Just had a short talk with an old school tire guy . He has no problem working on my rims. But says finding tires could be a problem. So I ask. 7.00 - 18 tires Astro 550 grip star is what is on the truck now. I’d be ok with other brands if needed. Is this size a hard one to find? If so what are my other options? Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307184 Mon Apr 15 2019 03:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,825
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
You might have a little problem finding rims, but the equivalent height tire to an 18" tube type is a 19.5" tubeless. A lot of the old bread trucks and other step-vans ran that tire, for some reason. That option also eliminates the problem with multi-piece rims. Tubeless tires need one-piece rims to seal the air properly without a tube.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307203 Mon Apr 15 2019 05:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
So then I assume a newer Chev 8 bolt rim won’t fit the bolt pattern? Or is it the back space

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307205 Mon Apr 15 2019 06:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,825
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
The 8 lug pattern is the same- - - -the problem is the diameter of the brake drums. Most drop-center tubeless rims won't clear the big drums, especially if it's got the 1-ton brakes. The 19.5" rims are big enough inside to clear the large diameter drums.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307207 Mon Apr 15 2019 06:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,967
69Cuda Offline
Big Bolt Forum Moderator
I believe you can also have the center of your multi-piece rims cut out and welded into 19.5 rims. I am not sure how cost effective that is anymore though.

Like this
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...t-wheel-combo-for-duals.html#Post1301709

Last edited by Grigg; Mon Apr 15 2019 11:53 PM. Reason: Add link

Mike

1955 Chevy 6400 ex-flatbed (no bed now!)
In the Stovebolt Gallery


1958 Chevy 6400 flatbed W/dump
In the Stovebolt Gallery

1959 Chevy Suburban Owned for almost 20 years, Daily Driver -- sold May 2016
In the Stovebolt Gallery

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307230 Mon Apr 15 2019 11:51 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.
19.5” 8 lug on 6.5” bolt circle dual wheels are still reasonably easy to find.
I have a set on my GMC, they fit nice and roll real nice.
Not all will fit though, some have the dish center that are more cone shape than rounded, the rounded kind should fit (and look better), not the cone shape.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307236 Tue Apr 16 2019 12:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Ok so it looks like I will try and source 19.5 8 lug 6.5 . Or maybe some dodge 19.5. And start sawing them apart. Lots of good info. here. What vehicles ran the 19.5 8 - 6.5 rims ? Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307256 Tue Apr 16 2019 03:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Just found 6 8-165.1 with 225-70r 19.5 rims with tires. Off a 2003 Chev 3500 . Is this what i’m Looking for? I believe the 165.1 is 6.5”. Will these fit over the drum brakes? Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307281 Tue Apr 16 2019 12:27 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307351 Tue Apr 16 2019 10:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
I picked up the wheels. The fronts fit although the center hole is a shade big 1/8” all around. I may just use lug centred nuts. That should rectify that problem. Now the back inside dual contacts the drum brake outside edge. Just as was discussed earlier in the page.Ball park about 3/4” spacer should do the trick. The tires and wheels were a decent price so I feel I can play around a bit to make them work. I will update once I get the spacers built bought or any other idea I come up with. Thanks pics coming soon

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307355 Tue Apr 16 2019 11:24 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.
You'll be better off finding the proper wheels.

Different lug nuts don't solve the mismatch in your hub and wheel center bore. Hub centered wheels (these are) it is important for them to fit snug on the hub. You could make bushings for the hubs but that's more trouble than finding the right wheels.

The interference with wheel and brake drum is a real issue too, also solved with the right wheels. Wheel spacers are generally regarded as a poor idea, I think particularly poor if attempted on hub centered dual rear wheels.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307489 Thu Apr 18 2019 01:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Well the best plan is always the rims that fit perfectly. Problem is I haven’t yet found the source of them. Obviously these don’t fit the bill. Other sources would be good to here. Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307501 Thu Apr 18 2019 01:52 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.
Junk yards are probably most likely place at this point.
Obviously not all step vans but some have them.
I’ve found them on 70’s GM one ton U-Haul trucks.
Other GM 1 tons 60’s through 70’s, possibly 80’s.

No one place to look and find them. Just look for the wheels and don’t worry about what they come off of so long as they are what you need.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals
1948 Chevrolet 6400 - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup
---All pictures---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307708 Fri Apr 19 2019 01:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Good plan. Now is it possible to fit a larger rim let’s say a 22”ish. On the back . That would do wonders for the rpm at road speed. I have the 4speed no extra shift button. So the gears start low and 1st and 2nd are close together the others not so bad. So i believe the taller the tire the better . I will never have a low end power problem although I may lose power in 4th. Once I get a tach in I will have a better idea where I am. I had it at 60 mph with the original 31” tires. It wasn’t absolutely screaming. Any thoughts on this. Thanks for all the help. It’s spring here after a long winter. I’m having a ball working on and driving this old gem. Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307711 Fri Apr 19 2019 02:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,825
H
Hotrod Lincoln Offline
Boltergeist
One thing to consider is that the increased leverage of larger diameter wheels and tires makes the brakes less effective. Getting it moving is only part of the problem- - - - -you also have to consider stopping and steering, which involves the same engineering that was done when selecting the original wheel size. Finding the correct tubeless wheels that match the fit and size of a tube type tire isn't just important- - - -you're betting your life on your decision. Even if you're willing to take the risk of running Rube Goldberg misfit parts, what about the rest of us who have to share the road with you? That soccer mom with a minivan full of kids in the lane next to you didn't participate in your decision to run some sort of dangerous modification!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1307853 Sat Apr 20 2019 01:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Never even was thinking of the brakes. The brakes lock up nicely with the original tires now. Not surprising considering I have went from a grain box to a flat deck. I’m guessing the box held in the area of 150 - 200 bushels. 12000 lbs lighter should make a noticeable improvement. That being said as I remember loaded grain trucks never could stop. Of course unless loaded in the field and then one could put your head into the windshield just by letting off the throttle .... The increased size of the wheels would be multiplied drastically in stoping distance. Not to mention stress on the brake components. And not in a good way. By changing the size I have come to the conclusion that this will change the steer and brake geometry. A can of worms I do not need to open. Back to the hunt for the original size. Thanks

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1308053 Sun Apr 21 2019 10:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 181
T
triplep Offline
Shop Shark
I have a set of 6 19.5 dually rims that are tubeless that I MIGHT be interested in selling . This is the older 50's style . Not the newer style found on step vans and such . They are kind of hard but not impossible to find. Can use a 19.5 radial from a newer step van. I had 2 19.5 single wheels . They are harder to find and sold a week after I found them. .

I was in an old yard last Friday and walked by an early 60's 1 ton dually that had the 17.5 dually tubeless singes on them. I have not seen them in a long long time.


ppp
Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1308464 Thu Apr 25 2019 01:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 82
C
can216 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Thanks for the thought. I may have a line on a set close to me. Thanks anyway.

Re: Widow maker rims [Re: can216] #1308480 Thu Apr 25 2019 02:32 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,081
G
Grigg Offline
.
Buying and selling on this site belongs in the Swap Meet section or use private messaging.

Thanks,
Grigg

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Grigg 

Home | FAQ | Forum | Swap Meet | Gallery | Tech Tips | Events | Features | Search | Hoo-Ya Shop
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3