Stovebolt.com Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Art Deco Subframe

50Dogg dont let the stigma of mustangII get yah as MartinSr says there is nothing stang about it. As far as price a sub does end up costing the same as a TCI stangII.The TCI thats on sale this month will take about 1 day to install(after you have the old stuff off)will not have cut the front of your frame off and with all the spring rates avail will ride better than a clip.We used to use clips when there was no other option and they were pretty new and low milage.But most look pretty bad installed and cost just as much a a stangII
Steering box rebuilt 350 (no one does it but your gettting new with a stangII)
good a frame bushings 100-180 bucks.
center link 80 bucks tie rod ends 25 each(X4)
balljoints 35 bucks each(x4)
wheelbearing about 55 bucks
wheel seals 12 bucks
brake rotors 60 bucks each (x2)
brake calipers 30 bucks each (x2) plus cores
Sand blast clip 75 bucks
New center link 65 bucks
new idler arm38 bucks
Sandblast a-frames 45 bucks
new front shocks 50 bucks
Plus you dont get disc brake clips for free anymore most are 150-300 bucks.Or you can covert a drumbrake setup by grinding the spindles.I have seen the so called frontend rebuild kits they are junk, not quality parts.
Plus all the welding materials and cuting to do the job.As i am sure Jack will tell you it aint the easest job and about 90% of them look like sh#t.(i have nixed many purchases for customer after looking at a clip job gone wrong,the word gets out and your car/truck is worthlesss) I our state they are just starting to get real nasty about reg stuff that looks crude so... You just cant beat the stangII or TCI style coil over set-up. By the way vette stuff is probaly about the same as stangII but fixin it later is big bucks. Front vette clips are 650-750 bucks now. Having said all that i still run a straight axle,If i had time and money would i change it ?Yep.Would it be a camaro clip ?Nope(10 years ago yep)Just some thought from some one that does this sort of thing every day.I know i once did one for 100 bucks but it aint gonna happen now a days.

Boy Phat I'm glad I don't shop where you do. Some of your quoted prices seemed pretty high. Course maybe your including labor cost. I'm lucky that the guy who helped me sub my cpe had done quite a few. However as you said there are some cars and trucks out there that look like real nightmares. Were I to do it over I consider a M II or possibly a Hiedts super ride. The only reason being track width. A 41 F*** is kind of narrow. Shortened the a-arms 1 1/2" each side. Didn't want to get into narrowing the sub itself, which I've seen some do. Space is a big enough problem that way with a SB let alone a BB

Jack, I have to say, your friend that helped you may have "done quite a few" frame clips, that doesn't mean it's done right. To make it "look" good is secondary, to have the steering and suspension geometry correct is most important.

I have seen front clips that "looked" good, only to find they wouldn't even come close to a proper wheel alignment. The understanding of basic steering and suspension theory in needed to make such complex design changes. MOST people who have done all these THOUSANDS of frame clips don't have this knowledge. That scares me to think they are on the highway with me, at the very least, they have a car that has less handling qualities than it could.

This is not to say a Mustang style kit is going to be perfect. I personally got one from Michael Thomas enginering for a Stude I did that had no anti-dive built in. They had redesigned it for some unknown reason to eliminate it. It was also poorly welded AND the welds were ground down to nothing. I sent it back and got a Heids, it was beautiful. The TPI is a copy of the Heids from what I understand.
My point being if the Mustang II is from a respected company, it will be designed and install correctly with ease. The original frame doesn't get cut in half and it even "looks" good.

Just a thought Jack (And i am not knocking your car) but how in the heck did he narrow the a-frames 1 1/2 iches per side with out screwing up the bump steer(shorter tie rods) changing roll centers and change the ratio of the springs and castor camber gain.. Let alone install the sway bar.Now you have really opened a can of worms. Please to the new guys if your new to this dont go narrowing front a-frames and clips as there is a lot more to it.MartinSr did he really put no anti dive in the crossmember or do you think he made the upper towers wrong. I think you mean TCI (total cost involved) they do a lot of there own work.(very good stuff) FATMAN is the one i have had real troubles with,just as you say screwed up anti dive really bad bumpsteer(1 inch of travel .090 in) a couple of crossmembers that split. Hedits guys have been great.Bob at progressive has been one of the best so far and he drives a Glass cabed AD everyday.(smart with the vette stuff and air ride) I suppose its like the guys that put racks on straight axles,i have seen it done but its so unsafe its pitifull.

Phat, Fatman sells shortened A-arms already shortened an 1 1/2". But we did these at home on a jig. No problem with the caster and camber. Front end shop had no problem with alinement. Yes the tie rods are shortened also. Sway bar ends are of course different, as you lose the stock attachment points in the shotening procces.They hook up by the means of 2 heim joints. I've got over 23,000 mi on the car with no problem. Have had it up over 120 mph. I've also driven it over 1150 mi in one 19 hr day. Does that sound like a car that does'nt handle or drive decent. Take the curves great also. Really suprised a Porshe one day.

Phat, I was thinking about narrowing my "A" arms too. Buy what I figured 1.50 inch would only be about an 8% change in overall length and all the points you made would be altered so little it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't be the same geometry that GM spent all that money developing, but in the real world little would change. The bump steer was my biggest concern but being where they pivot and the fact that both arm and tie rod would be shortened it would work.

But, as the old saying goes, when you modify one thing.........it leads to many more.

That Michael Thomas chross member was flat! It had ZERO anti dive designed into it. Plus the upper shock mount looked like a piece of exhaust pipe with a washer welded on top!

Phat, you talked about a rack on the straight axle. Why is this so bad? I asume this is a rack and pinion? I don't want one, just intersting topic. Joe

Let me take this one till PHAT can get with you. First off a rack is used on late model cars because it is cheaper, not better. When you put it on the axle, your steering column connection is a nightmare and to do it right would require a shaft from the rack, back about 2 feet to a universal joint at the end of the leaf spring. Anything short of this is incorrect and componants fight against one and other.

If the rack is mounted to the frame (UG!) the "tie rod" ends are too short and you will have bump steer. It is just plain WRONG, and why people do it is beyond me. With all the proof, and articles in magazines and such, I can't believe it is still done.

so how would you recommend doing power steering on an AD??? I'm assuming a TCI cross member would have it built in correctly?

My father has a '77 Camaro stub in a '46 1/2 ton with power steering. The truck has about 4" of daylight under it. Handles like its on a rail, much better than the Muskrat II in my '53. You will need to be aware of your rim backset, as not just any rims can be used. If I had to do it over again, I would take about 2" out of the center, but I'm being picky. Realistically speaking, the cost will not be as bad as you might think. The typical clip will need loaded calipers $35 ea., new rotors $50 ea, ball joints $15 ea. Bushings rarely need replacing, and its not likely the tierod ends or centerlink would be bad either. The rest depends on how fancy you want to go.

Don't waste your time with upgrading the stock setup if you don't really want it. Save your money and do it right the first time. Running around with 10" of daylight between the top of the tire and the fender is seriously tacky.

Not that I condone this, but...

When mounting a rack to a straight axle, you need to use a slip joint between the rack and column such as a "D" shape GM. The problem is that it creates a wear area that could fail faster than normal in parts that were not really intended for that purpose. I know of a couple of these running around town for several years now without problems. I would go with a Vega cross steering setup instead.

The main advantage to the muskrat is that the kit versions come made to fit for your particular aplication. It's trading time for money. It's also a more compact design which allows it to be used more readily in 30's, 40's vehicles.