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Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
#1276276 Tue Aug 14 2018 10:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 170
5
52 6400 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Hey All,

Question on the rear duals on my 52 6400. These are the 3 piece, AR type I think, two of the tires are good and two are shot. Contacted the local Cenx in the next town. Guy tells me the 8.25x20s are almost impossible to get. I looked online and they are around so not sure where his info is coming from. He has two so I hauled the rims and old tires over there. I had asked to have them break the wheels down so I could paint them first but the tire guy refused, said there couldn't be any paint in the groove where the snap ring sits. Ok told him I would deal with it. Then tells me my 3 piece rims are split rims and are the "widow makers". Tried to explain they weren't but informed me he had worked on truck tires for years and knows. Still will put the tires on, fine. I got the other two home and cleaned them but found a crack in one between bolt holes. The guy at the shop told me the two he is working on have worn bolt holes, I don't think the holes are bad but are worn a little. How big a deal is that for an old truck that won't ever haul much? Also I pulled a wheel off my parts truck to replace the cracked one, it has worse wear on some of the holes. Just wondering what everyone thinks of the oblong worn holes in these wheels. Obviously I don't want to use one that is cracked, doesn't look like it is cracked all the way thru but still is a problem. Thanks for any advice guys.


52 6400
50 3600
69 Ford LTD
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
52 6400 #1276314 Wed Aug 15 2018 02:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 608
R
Shop Shark
I believe the wheels on your truck are hub centric. The worn holes are probably from loose lug nuts. Install the tires, Install the wheels, torque them and give them a good looking over everyone in a while!

My$.02 worth..


Randy Domeck
Indianapolis Fabrications
rdomeck@me.com
Indianapolis, In. 46254
317-258-0039

Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
RDomeck #1276317 Wed Aug 15 2018 02:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 170
5
52 6400 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by RDomeck
I believe the wheels on your truck are hub centric. The worn holes are probably from loose lug nuts. Install the tires, Install the wheels, torque them and give them a good looking over everyone in a while!

My$.02 worth..


Thanks, I was kind of thinking this also. This thing was probably a commercial gravel truck originally but became a farm truck many years ago. I worked for farmers as a kid and they overload these grain trucks bad. I think the overloading tends to make the lug nuts work loose and you end up with damaged holes. The tire guy thought they would be ok as long as I didn't drive it much. Thing is the cracked rim is no doubt worse, I have some other wheels I am going to have to look at as the one from my parts truck is in a little worse shape as far as the bolt holes. Think I have maybe 3 more out in my one building and have 2 on the front of the parts truck.


52 6400
50 3600
69 Ford LTD
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
52 6400 #1276398 Wed Aug 15 2018 05:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,516
S
Shop Shark
How do you make a split rim widow maker, out of a 3 piece, snap ring wheel. Sounds like that tire man of many years, has been misinformed.


Spanky Hardy
Collector Of Fine Old G.M. COE Trucks & Antique Holmes Wreckers

1948 Chevrolet 5700 COE Holmes HD W35 Wrecker
In the Stovebolt Gallery
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1950 GMC 250 1-Ton
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Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
spanky #1276400 Wed Aug 15 2018 06:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 170
5
52 6400 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by spanky
How do you make a split rim widow maker, out of a 3 piece, snap ring wheel. Sounds like that tire man of many years, has been misinformed.


I know, he informed me that ALL these multi piece rims are split rims and are dangerous. They won't work on the real split rims of course but will work on these AR type. That is kind of typical, know it all and you don't know nothing. I took a wheel off my junk parts truck and looked at it. Guess what? That one I think IS an RH-5, for sure is 2 piece and looks like the picture in the shop manual of the "optional" 2 piece rim. That old parts truck has another one I think on the front. I found a good AR type I got off another scrap truck in a SD junk yard several years ago. Took that back to the Cenex today and will have the good tire on the cracked rim put on it. Cleaning in prep for painting now, lot of dirty work.


52 6400
50 3600
69 Ford LTD
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
52 6400 #1276447 Wed Aug 15 2018 10:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,608
H
Boltergeist
Badly rusted, worn, or damaged wheels with a removable bead ring can be just as deadly as a RH-5, especially if one is a bit careless when assembling them. If the wheels you're using have tapered lug nuts with a corresponding bevel in the wheel, oblong holes are a definite problem. If the lug nuts fit flat against the wheel with a built-in thrust washer, a slightly elongated hole isn't as serious, but they need to be checked for tightness frequently. Elongated holes on a drive axle will be more of a problem, as the torque load of accelerating and braking will let the lug bolts move back and forth no matter how much the nuts are tightened. If you have a choice, put the better-condition wheels on the drive axle(s).
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
Hotrod Lincoln #1276530 Thu Aug 16 2018 12:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 170
5
52 6400 Offline OP
Shop Shark
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
Badly rusted, worn, or damaged wheels with a removable bead ring can be just as deadly as a RH-5, especially if one is a bit careless when assembling them. If the wheels you're using have tapered lug nuts with a corresponding bevel in the wheel, oblong holes are a definite problem. If the lug nuts fit flat against the wheel with a built-in thrust washer, a slightly elongated hole isn't as serious, but they need to be checked for tightness frequently. Elongated holes on a drive axle will be more of a problem, as the torque load of accelerating and braking will let the lug bolts move back and forth no matter how much the nuts are tightened. If you have a choice, put the better-condition wheels on the drive axle(s).
Jerry


Yes the AR type rims can be really bad too if they are damaged from what I understand or not put together right. I won't mess with them myself, I don't have the necessary tools and are tough for an older guy to mess with. I guess some of these tire guys consider any of these multi piece rims split widow makers but they will still work on them. The ones I have are the hub pilot type so aren't maybe as critical with slightly worn bolt holes as it would be in the case of wheels with the tapered holes. The holes are only slightly worn at least. All the wheels I have seem to have some type of wear on these holes so can't switch wheels around. My front wheels have the 7.55s on them and the back are 8.25. The tire guy seemed to think the slightly worn holes wouldn't be a big issue as long as the truck isn't used a whole lot. It will probably never haul any real loads either. These were on really tight when I first started working on it, it took my 3/4 drive 40 inch breaker bar and a 4 foot pipe to break them loose. The old farmer even had 2 nuts on some of the bolts, ended up replacing the lug bolts and nuts. As I posted above many of these old grain trucks up here were badly overloaded, am thinking that led to the wheel issues. I found one wheel I took off a 51 6400 in a junk yard down in SD that looked pretty good so am using that to replace the one that is cracked around a bolt hole. I will have to watch these I guess.

Another wheel question: I have noticed two different types of these AR rims. One has a flat front ring and the other has a rounded ring. This is the ring that goes around the main rim and is locked onto it with the snap ring. My truck has two of these round style on the front and the flat type on the back. My parts truck is a mix of both types and even a couple of what I think are RH-5s. I am wondering if the one having the rounded profile was intended for the front for appearance sake? I have never seen anything about this difference.
Thanks guys.


52 6400
50 3600
69 Ford LTD
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
52 6400 #1276540 Thu Aug 16 2018 02:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,608
H
Boltergeist
If you do enough buffing of the wheels with a wire brush to find stamped names and numbers, you'll probably discover different manufacturers' names. Just don't try to mix and match components from different wheels- - - -the fit is critical and different makers' parts usually don't work well together.

The quick way to identify the RH5's is to look for a flat band about 2" wide down where the wheel barrel meets the center, and there's no obvious removable ring where the tire sidewall meets the rim on either side. There's no danger about deflating them and dismantling the two halves to remove the tires, but the pieces should be defaced to the point they can't be assembled again. I like to torch out a big chunk of the mating joint. Those rims make good anchor bases for bench grinders, anvils, etc.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
Hotrod Lincoln #1276572 Thu Aug 16 2018 08:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 170
5
52 6400 Offline OP
Shop Shark
I did notice some markings on the 3 rims I have done so far, I think "RH" and maybe "RW". I know you can't mix the parts of these rims, the tire guy mentioned that also.

The pictures are of some different wheels I have, the first one is of one of the rear wheels I am in the process of painting. It shows the flat ring around the outside. The next is of one of my front rims on my truck that I cleaned and painted some time back. This one has the curved ring instead of the flat one. These two are the ones I was wondering about in the second part of my last post, was wondering if the difference was the curved one was for the front because it looks a little nicer? The 3 and 4th pictures are of the rim I think is the RH-5 split one off my junk parts truck, front and rear. The last is of the left front on the same truck, it looks different that the last one but is not an AR with the lock ring.








https://imgur.com/a/rVnDDQO


52 6400
50 3600
69 Ford LTD
Re: Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims
52 6400 #1276584 Thu Aug 16 2018 10:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 20,608
H
Boltergeist
The black and red wheel is definitely an RH-5 (widowmaker). The wheel at the bottom of the sequence is an oddball- - - -it has a very narrow locking lip on the removable bead, with no extra lock ring, with a couple of milled-out spaces that won't be visible until the tire is deflated and the beads are hammered away from the flanges. To remove/install the ring, part of it must be pried over the lip of the main wheel and hammered sideways on and off. That style of lock ring was most commonly used on the 18" tube type wheels used on 1 ton vehicles. My 1959 Chevy 3800 had them installed and they're VERY susceptible to rust damage to the extremely narrow locking lips. 20" wheels with that type of lock ring are pretty safe, but ONLY if the locking grooves are rust-free and unworn.
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
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