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Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1271988 Tue Jul 10 2018 02:22 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,176
G
.
Modern as in brand new or close is one thing, I believe the donor under consideration is from the early 80's, modern in comparison to a 52 truck, but nothing special.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals [stovebolt.com]
1948 Chevrolet 6400 [stovebolt.com] - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup [stovebolt.com]
---All pictures [picasaweb.google.com]---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
Hotrod Lincoln #1272011 Tue Jul 10 2018 05:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
X
xtremek Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
I'd be VERY reluctant to try pulling loads like that with anything other than a new, purpose-built truck with a LOT of factory engineering in its pedigree. You're getting into at least medium-duty Diesel territory with loads like that, and stopping and steering a rig like that with some sort of home-brewed suspension system could get deadly dangerous not only to you, but everybody who shares the road with you. A commercial vehicle enforcement officer would probably get writer's cramp in his ticket-writing hand if you ever got stopped and inspected.
Jerry



I hear you loud and clear. This is not my first build, but it will be by FAR my most extensive, by leagues. The one thing I have learned from previous builds is to stay close to home, and test a ton. Test, test, and test some more. I'm not the first to do this, so I hope people will chime in when they see what I'm doing and give constructive feedback. And I'll tell you my neighbor tows a 36' with his 3/4 ton Chevy Duramax 4x4, so I don't think this will be outside the scope of my, or the truck's abilities. So stay tuned, and please be open with your concerns.


The Hack Shack
"Don't try this at home. We're not professionals, but we don't care either."
My barn/property renovation thread - http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=222544
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
mick53 #1272013 Tue Jul 10 2018 05:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
X
xtremek Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Originally Posted by mick53
It would seem to me that a drop spindle does nothing to the steering and suspension geometry. That's why I chose that method. Lowering the back changes your driveline angle a little but not much else. All you have really done is lower the center of gravity a little, I don't know a lot about stovebolts but I know a little about towing. A modern 1 ton dually doesn't even know a 40' fifth wheel is back there.


And that's what I'm hoping will make this a success. As far as driveline/chassis go, I'm not doing anything new or radical. There will be a ton of changes, but most of them will be as simple as a spindle change. Air rides have been done elsewhere, and the challenges are well known. So I'm pretty sure I have this. But I will look forward to hearing from everyone.


The Hack Shack
"Don't try this at home. We're not professionals, but we don't care either."
My barn/property renovation thread - http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=222544
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
Grigg #1272015 Tue Jul 10 2018 05:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
X
xtremek Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Originally Posted by Grigg
Modern as in brand new or close is one thing, I believe the donor under consideration is from the early 80's, modern in comparison to a 52 truck, but nothing special.


You're right that my chassis donor isn't new, but my Granddad hauled a 32' 5th wheel, and a kit car with his '73 3/4 ton Ford This donor is a 1 ton, so I would hope it can handle the load better. And I do plan on making upgrades to the brakes (rear discs), and suspension (bushing and air ride), so it should be good to go. But do me a favor, and keep me honest.


The Hack Shack
"Don't try this at home. We're not professionals, but we don't care either."
My barn/property renovation thread - http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=222544
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1272025 Tue Jul 10 2018 06:48 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,176
G
.
There's not much difference between 3/4 and 1 ton drivetrain, even today. It's basically springs, and sometimes brakes. The frame is still reasonably light in comparison to a medium duty truck rated to comfortably handle the loads you describe. I suspect the 82 frame is also less substantial than the equivalent frame today.

Before jumping in with a particular donor chassis and then upgrading this and that, look and see if there's an ever better donor with fewer required upgrades.

For example you're looking at a 1 ton with a 14 bolt rear and adding disc brakes, but a new AAM axle, the replacement for the 14 bolt comes with disc brakes. So the AAM axle, or the whole newer truck, may be the better option. Also consider that "disc brakes" aren't all equal. A Crosley car came with disc brakes, but they're hardly suitable for a 1 ton truck. I believe that the readily available kits for adding "disc brakes" to a 14 bolt are based on old 3/4 ton front components, they don't look that special to me. If you're still into adding disc to a 14 bolt there's some info a few post down in this link on adding the later model, larger, AAM disc brakes.
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread.../14-bolt-axle-swap-info.html#Post1249600

Back to upgrading axles, take a look at this truck I didn't build, but I did swap axles.
https://goo.gl/photos/5fvttZyaSsDGudw4A
The original axles, gears, and brakes weren't up to the engine and transmission's capability (swapped in decades ago). I wanted better gear ratio, taller tires, and serious brakes, which I found with axles from an, at the time, new model Freightliner medium duty truck rear axle and a TopKick front axle. I don't recall the rotor diameter and thickness but they were way larger than any pickup truck, and had massive calipers.
The whole thing when done was much better, but then look at the frame it's now quite spindly in comparison to the rest of the truck... Ended up being more drivetrain altogether than the frame was good for.

In my opinion, you're asking more than an old 1 ton should be asked to do, even if it could. A medium duty chassis would be a better fit capacity wise. Some have used import cab over trucks as donors, that's worth a look and they can be narrower which is a help.
Otherwise if you're stuck with old GM sort of 1 ton stuff.... look a little larger at the P30 (and similar modles) and the 3500HD all with the 10 lug pattern on 7.25" bolt circle, these trucks come with hefty disc brakes front and rear. My 2 ton has axles under it from these chassis, and original frame, which is also well worth considering.


1951 GMC 250 in the Project Journals [stovebolt.com]
1948 Chevrolet 6400 [stovebolt.com] - Detroit Diesel 4-53T - Roadranger 10 speed overdrive - 4 wheel disc brakes
1952 Chevrolet 3800 pickup [stovebolt.com]
---All pictures [picasaweb.google.com]---
"First, get a clear notion of what you desire to accomplish, and then in all probability you will succeed in doing it..." -Henry Maudslay-
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1272082 Wed Jul 11 2018 02:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 22,980
H
'Bolter
Look a little beyond the basic alignment angles such as caster, camber, and toe. Dropped spindles affect such things as roll center, roll couple, scrub radius, and Ackerman. Making a simple change such as going to a different anti-roll bar, or changing its position can induce all sorts of unpredictable handling characteristics in a turn.

Rear suspension design also does a lot more than just hold up the back end of the vehicle, and rear roll centers, etc. can have a lot of influence on handling. Let me strongly suggest that you read everything you can about suspension and steering design before you start whittling and welding. You'll probably save yourself a lot of time and money and end up with a reliable, safe vehicle that will do exactly what you want if you make it work on paper first. The round track race cars I built for a few decades went through that exact process before we ever put a torch or a saw to the first piece of metal.

Straight ahead driving probably won't be affected, but getting into an unexpected tight turn with a loaded trailer isn't going to be the time to discover your engineering wasn't quite as good as you thought. Now, pretty soon, a few people who wear their feelings on their sleeve are going to accuse me of being an unfeeling old goat who spends every day looking for somebody's bubble to burst, and their agonized screams of anguish will be something to behold. We should really consider having an official Stovebolt.com crying towel for those guys. I spent 30-something years teaching high school kids who had been abandoned by the public education system to be productive, taxpaying members of society as ASE-certified auto mechanics, so those comments don't bother me at all.

As long as you go into your project with an open mind and a willingness to at least listen to the advice of some of us who have spent a lifetime making a living in the automotive business, we'll get along just fine. Whether of not you choose to heed that advice is up to you.

If you're one of those guys who get their lacy drawers in a wad anytime something other than fawning praise for your project comes your way, go ahead and think whatever you will of me. Just take note of the sprig of mistletoe attached to my shirt tail!
Jerry


The murder victim was drowned in a bathtub full of Rice Krispies and milk.
The coroner blamed the crime on a cereal killer!

Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1272101 Wed Jul 11 2018 12:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
X
xtremek Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
Guys, don't worry, you haven't hurt my feelings.....yet. smile The last P30 I worked on was a straight axle, and I'd rather have the comfort and handling of an independent front end. Same with the Isuzu's. That being said, both of those were trucks from at least ten years ago. I did a similar static drop to an '03 F150 that was used heavily as a truck, but I know not hauling loads this heavy. And the current donor chassis is currently being used to haul the aforementioned crushed concrete loads. I figure I'll have to back half the frame and plan on making it out of 3x5 tubing, and boxing the front half, so I'm not worried about the frame taking the loads. But you mentioned brakes, so I think I'll check into what the current 1-ton's use for brakes.


The Hack Shack
"Don't try this at home. We're not professionals, but we don't care either."
My barn/property renovation thread - http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=222544
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1272104 Wed Jul 11 2018 12:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
X
xtremek Offline OP
Wrench Fetcher
I hear you Hot Rod Lincoln. I've read (and studied) all of Carroll Smith's books. Do you have any suggestions on other reading material? I'll admit this will be my first foray into air ride and heavy duty suspensions, but after talking to some of my friends who haul big trailers, I think it's the best way to go. And I have done some suspension design in the past (a couple of FSAE cars), but nothing in this realm. So, please keep checking and pushing back to keep me honest. Constructive criticism is welcomed and appreciated.


The Hack Shack
"Don't try this at home. We're not professionals, but we don't care either."
My barn/property renovation thread - http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=222544
Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1272193 Thu Jul 12 2018 12:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 9,759
5
'Bolter
"Unfeeling old goat." That's funny right there! Only ones who have come to that conclusion about HRL, have never met him in person, or at least shared a Private Message with him.
His posts will contain some "tough love" in them from time to time, but it is still love just the same. The dude genuinely cares enough to help us.
Drive your Stovebolt within a hundred miles of him and have a breakdown. I'll bet he'll drop whatever he is doing to help you out.

Carl
One brain cell short of having two to rub together.

Re: '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions
xtremek #1272208 Thu Jul 12 2018 02:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,984
'Bolter
Carl,

I agree, I called him just the other day. Amazing man, amazing amount of knowledge, great teacher and gives it to you straight (good or bad).

Chris

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