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#835408 - Thu Mar 15 2012 12:18 AM GMC 450 curb weight needed..... now with pictures
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
It has a 5th wheel on a 137"WB and 302 engine. I want to make sure my trailer is not overloaded. Plus I will need to winch it on.

Thanks


Edited by k9trucker (Wed Mar 21 2012 06:12 PM)
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#835416 - Thu Mar 15 2012 12:49 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
dw_moto Offline
New Guy
Registered: Wed Aug 17 2011 10:19 PM
Posts: 35
Loc: Idaho
I don't have the curb weight for the GMC but the '53 Chevy 1-1/2 ton with the 137in wheelbase has a curb weight of 4775 lbs. with a flatbed and 5010 lbs. with a steakbed. You'll need to estimate for the different bed and engine but if might give you a starting point.
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#835461 - Thu Mar 15 2012 09:21 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: dw_moto]
spanky Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Fri Dec 20 2002 12:00 PM
Posts: 4018
Loc: burlington, n.c.
Curb weight of a 137"in. wheelbase model 451-30 will be 5725 lb.'s hyd. brakes, 5825 lb.'s with air actuated brakes, Then add weight of fifth wheel, so it will probably weigh approx. 6000-6200 lb.'s.
_________________________
Spanky Hardy......Collector Of Fine Old G.M. COE Trucks & Antique Holmes Wreckers
1950 GMC 250 1-Ton in the Gallery
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#835632 - Thu Mar 15 2012 07:50 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: spanky]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Thanks to both of you for your help.

Spanky, I thought the truck was a 137", but maybe I'm wrong cause the model is a 452-30a, but it's also supposed to be a 1953. Does the a stand for anything? Air? So I'm unclear, it could be a 149" WB. The page where I got the info listed the 452-30 as a 1954 model. Another foot in WB shouldn't add too much weight I'm guessing.

Thanks again


Edited by k9trucker (Thu Mar 15 2012 07:50 PM)
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#835751 - Fri Mar 16 2012 08:05 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
spanky Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Fri Dec 20 2002 12:00 PM
Posts: 4018
Loc: burlington, n.c.
A 452 list as being 40 lb.'s heavier than a 451. Not sure what that "A" stands for. There should be a "GMC Parts Identification" plate on the back of the glove box lid, with all the trucks specifications.
_________________________
Spanky Hardy......Collector Of Fine Old G.M. COE Trucks & Antique Holmes Wreckers
1950 GMC 250 1-Ton in the Gallery
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#835979 - Fri Mar 16 2012 11:25 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: spanky]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Thanks Spanky.

I think the truck should be a plain jane, basic model because it was built for the military. It is supposed to have a military tag on it.
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#837180 - Wed Mar 21 2012 12:08 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
It took all day and then some to get the truck home. The truck squashed my trailer, the tag on the dash said empty weight was 7725 lbs. It did fit on the trailer, but I had a trailer tire smoking from rubbing the fender due to the weight. That had me scratching my head since I was out in the middle of nowhere. I have lived my entire life in Oregon, but I have never been to Twickenham or even heard of it, but it is beautiful and very remote.

The only rust on it was under the floor mat. It will need some floor board repair on the drivers side. I'll look over the truck better in the daylight tomorrow. It was a USAF truck originally. Then spent time in rural fire dept duty for the Forest Service.

I was told it was the oldest truck still assigned to the Forest Service in Oregon.

I took pictures, I'll work at getting them online.
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#837213 - Wed Mar 21 2012 05:43 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Bill Marlow Offline
Camp Commandant
Registered: Tue Nov 07 2000 12:00 PM
Posts: 1482
Loc: Dayton, Maryland. USA
Sounds like an adventure. Looking forward to seeing the pictures.
Congrats on getting her home.
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#837384 - Wed Mar 21 2012 05:00 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Bill Marlow]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
It certainly was an adventure. It's somewhat difficult to believe it actually happened. Pictures tho, are the proof. If your not from Oregon you may have trouble picturing 5 mile, 7% downgrades on the back roads. That's what keeps life interesting when you have a load like this.

The truck has a 5 spd. 1st is all the way to the right and down, second is all the way to the left and up. Weird shift pattern. Plus there is a dir under 5th on the pattern sticker. What I like most about the truck is it hasn't been messed with up with a torch and welding rod. There are a few holes that need to be filled where there were extra emergency lights added on the fender and cab top.

I'm not positively sure but yellow appears to be the 1st color it was painted. Being a USAF truck, and that flight line trucks were yellow....it could have been one. Then came a red, then the white.

http://s1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb357/farwestmilitary/1953%20GMC%2045230%20tractor/?start=all


Edited by k9trucker (Wed Mar 21 2012 06:18 PM)
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#837439 - Wed Mar 21 2012 07:41 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sun Mar 07 2004 12:00 PM
Posts: 2174
Loc: Hughesville, MD
Nice looking truck! Glad to hear you got home safe...

Mike B smile
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#837551 - Wed Mar 21 2012 11:08 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Mike B]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
Nice truck! The transmission shift pattern sounds like the Clark thats in my COE. It really takes some getting used to. The shift pattern looks like this:
2 5 R
I-I-I
3 4 1

It takes some un-learning to drive with that tranny. Mine is actually an overdrive, so the way to shift the two speed rear in the upper gears is 4l - 5l - 4h - 5h.
Good luck with your truck. Is sure is a cool one.
Scott
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
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#837561 - Wed Mar 21 2012 11:37 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Scott's50]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I thought 5th on mine was where 4 is on your truck, but I'm probably remembering it wrong, otherwise it is the same. This truck has no overdrive, so I'm wondering how I should shift the rear. Was their a different 2spd rear for the OD transmission?. Have to get running before I can shift it tho.

Can't find any pictures of another like it on the web. There must not have been many made. If someone has a picture, please post a link. There is a military contract # on the dash.


Edited by k9trucker (Wed Mar 21 2012 11:39 PM)
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#837576 - Thu Mar 22 2012 12:59 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
I saw that auction with the 450 series along with a government specced 424, but I decided it was just too far to haul to TX. I was tempted though because there are some good paying flatbed loads from Texas to the Pacific Northwest. But I would have probably had to hire a wrecker to retrieve the 2 units and then to load them on a flat with no ramps. You have a Clark which was very popular in the 50's. What Scott is describing is what we called a working 5th. It is a transmission with close ratios between 4th and 5th. If you do not have the close ratio between 4th and 5th, it will shift 4th lo, 4th hi; 5th low, 5th hi. There should be a tag in the glove box and a tag on the transmission that will give you a model no. It could be a 205V or 207V which are direct or a 207VO which is an OD.
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#837588 - Thu Mar 22 2012 01:30 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
You probably would have had to do just that and to hire a wrecker would have been costly because it would have had an hour drive to get there. The closest town is very small and 25 miles away. The next town is another 50 miles away it's bigger.

The trans is a direct going by the shift pattern label, which has a dir under the 5. I'll look in the glove box tomorrow.
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#837699 - Thu Mar 22 2012 12:46 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
I bought the most original 56 Ford I have ever seen in Bend, OR a few years ago. I am familiar with the high desert of OR. I am sure recovery and storage of the 2 vehicles would have been more than the cost of the vehicles in the first place.
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#837746 - Thu Mar 22 2012 05:26 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
You're right it would have been alot more than the original cost and the bad thing is it's extremely hard if not impossible to predict costs as there are always complications. Like this original thread title. I was looking for the weight to determine if I could haul it with the trailer I had. You never know what you're in for until you get there.
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#837828 - Thu Mar 22 2012 09:59 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
The glove box plate says the transmission is a clark 205v. 2spd rear ratio's are 6.5/9.04.

Top Speed? 45mph?
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#837850 - Thu Mar 22 2012 11:03 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
The 205V is a Direct. The last year of the 302 was 1959 when it was rated at 160HP @ 3800 RPM so you don't have to worry about over revving it. The 6.50/9.04 was the slower of the 2 ratios offered but if you put 10x20 or 11x22.5 tires on it, it will run 60. The 424 they sold would have had a 302 in it also that was rated at 3800.
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#837876 - Fri Mar 23 2012 01:41 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
The tires on it are 9:00x20 and are almost new. I won't replace them. That would be a big expense. I will have to live with a slower top speed.
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#838021 - Fri Mar 23 2012 05:29 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
Even with nines, it will run faster than 45.
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#838298 - Sat Mar 24 2012 03:34 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
crenweige, What ratios were in the faster ratio 2spd rear?

Thanks
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#838375 - Sat Mar 24 2012 09:35 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
5.57/7.75 and 5.63/7.81
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#838500 - Sun Mar 25 2012 11:48 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
peytonmaterne Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Fri Dec 04 2009 11:05 AM
Posts: 106
Loc: SE Ohio
K9, I hauled pretty much the same truck from hershey pa to southeastern ohio. Mine was minus cab and transmission but was still very heavy. Made me wish I had a tri-axle trailer and a manual transmission!! Pa turnpike seemed to go on forever. Good looking truck you got there!
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#838524 - Sun Mar 25 2012 01:29 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: peytonmaterne]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
The truck dwarfs the trailer besides squashing it. I pulled it all with a 95 dodge with a cummins 12v. The truck was in such a remote location that I could not get any info off it before I arrived, so I was committed to haul it with what I had. I could not find any info or even pictures on a like truck off the web either. One guy that tried to help said his factory literature indicated a weight that was over 1500 lbs less than the plate states on my truck. I'd like to know why my truck is so different. Is your truck a tractor? Do you have any pictures? Thanks for the compliment.
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#838603 - Sun Mar 25 2012 07:32 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
My 450 COE started life as a road tractor as well. They appear to be set up a lot alike. Your 205v should have the following ratios:
1- 7.58:1, 2- 4.38:1, 3- 2.40:1, 4- 1.48:1, 5- direct. My 207vo has a .86 OD in fifth. Your rear with the 6.50-9.04 ratios should be an Eaton 16600 electric shifted two speed, same as mine. The 5.57-7.75 would likely have been in a diesel truck.
I'm running 8.25-20 tires. I have seen 60 on the speedometer. The engine was turning 3200+ rpm. If you're unfamiliar with these old trucks,3000 sounds like the lid is about to come off with the fan noise, etc. I can't imagine 3800.
Give me a shout when/ if you need any help finding parts. I wrote down all the part numbers that I've used and I might be able to save you some steps on chasis/brake items.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2094988510106941429dMCLOf

By the way I added a picture Spanky sent me of my truck, "back in the day", in it's former life as a road tractor.
Scott


Edited by Scott's50 (Sun Mar 25 2012 07:33 PM)
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
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#838610 - Sun Mar 25 2012 07:46 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Scott's50]
peytonmaterne Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Fri Dec 04 2009 11:05 AM
Posts: 106
Loc: SE Ohio
K9, I pulled mine with a 91 Dodge 3/4 Cummins/auto, pulled it fine but it was the heaviest thing I have pulled to date. Its definitely heavier than the 89 dodge dually cummins I pulled a while back, and that was using a much heavier trailer I borrowed. I estimated that load at 8500lbs, 3000 for the trailer and 5500 for the truck. My 52 has the 3-71 and the two speed with 5.57 high range. It was a number 4 wheelbase but was shortened to about 142" wheelbase and used as a yard spotter.
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#838870 - Mon Mar 26 2012 04:46 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: peytonmaterne]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Thanks Scott for the parts help offer. The rear is electrically shifted and I remember seeing Eaton, possibly in the glove box. It would be nice to cruise at 60 but I don't care for the noise or the fuel consumption when the engine gets too busy. Maybe I should think about a brownie aux transmission. The plate on the glove box door has a place for an auxiliary transmission, but it was blank. I wonder if it would have come with one, what model it would have been.

Your truck looks nice and you put it to good use. I would like to use my truck at least occasionally, possibly to bring something else home. I need to get it running 1st, then search for a trailer.
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#838874 - Mon Mar 26 2012 05:00 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Peyton, I was wondering how my tranny temp was doing because the 1st 15 miles were almost all uphill on a slow curvy road that was barely wide enough for 2 pickups. I don't have a working temp gauge so I will never know. That 450 was certainly the heaviest load that trailer ever hauled.
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#838941 - Mon Mar 26 2012 08:52 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
K9, my GMC Maintence Manual lists the original auxiliary transmission as a Spicer model 5531-b. This is a three speed with a 2.36:1 under drive, direct, and .85:1 overdrive. Though, I believe a lot of junk yard scavenging went on in the past and a lot of trucks ended up with something other than what they would have had from the factory.
If you don't have a Maintance Manual, that would be a good thing to pick up. Mine has a green cover and is a number x-5209, it is specifically for models 450-470. And it is for a '52 year model with a revision date of 10-1952. I would imagine your 53 would be very similar. I also have a Master Parts Book, number x-152002. This shows you all the parts, and their number. Invaluable when going to the parts house, a lot of the numbers will cross over. These are a little more difficult to run across. Hope this helps.
You've never said if your truck had hydraulic, air over hydraulic or full air brakes. I was just curious because your truck is a road tractor. Mine is straight hydraulic.
Scott
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
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#838981 - Mon Mar 26 2012 10:54 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Scott's50]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
I saw a compressor on it in the auction brochure. It must be air over hydraulic because the dive axle has hydraulic brakes. 60 mph with 9.00x20 tires will be 3400 rpm. These things were built to turn 3400 rpm all day long. 45 mph is only 2600 rpm. It is going to use a lot of gas whatever you do to it. At 60 mph the wind noise will probably drown out the fan and rocker noise any way. You need to remember this is a 60 year old truck.
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#838999 - Mon Mar 26 2012 11:56 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
It has air over hydraulic brakes. It actually has no brakes at the moment. On the glove box door the plate states AIR on the brake line. I was curious if full air was an option with this size truck.
The truck has an alternator on it now. Was it originally 6 volt and converted to 12v or was it 12v from the factory?
At 45mph fuel consumption should be much more reasonable than 60mph.
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#839011 - Tue Mar 27 2012 12:37 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
spanky Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Fri Dec 20 2002 12:00 PM
Posts: 4018
Loc: burlington, n.c.
Full air was an option on the '47-'54 450, & 470 series GMC trucks. I have a 1952 GMC 470 series COE, with full air brakes.
_________________________
Spanky Hardy......Collector Of Fine Old G.M. COE Trucks & Antique Holmes Wreckers
1950 GMC 250 1-Ton in the Gallery
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#839042 - Tue Mar 27 2012 07:56 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: spanky]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
Fuel consumption is a relative term. I get about 6-7 mpg and I average about 1/4 of the time loaded, 3/4 of the time tooling around, usually around 50 mph tops. It doesnt take long to see why the trucks had a large saddle tank on them.
The truck would have come from the factory as 6v positive ground. Mine had also been converted to 12v negative ground. Not absolutely original, but very handy in today's world. I have an electric brake control in mine as a necessity.
Scott
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
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#839173 - Tue Mar 27 2012 05:48 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Scott's50]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Air over hydraulic must have been considered air brakes. There is an air brake controller for trailers with air brakes, but I'n not sure how it's used or how it actually works. Obviously I've never used one.

My truck has 2 saddle tanks on it. Makes me think it can get thirsty. Scott, is that 6 to 7 mpg on the highway or an all around average?

It doesn't appear that any thought was given to the gauges when the conversion to 12v was done, but I'll look some more. There were 2 jars of tail lamps in the glovebox. It also has a knife type switch to cut off the battery from the starter. They moved the battery from it's original location because the mounting brace cracked and broke. I need to delve into the electrics some more.
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#839239 - Tue Mar 27 2012 09:35 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
Most of my driving is short trips. I haven't really put the truck on the highway and aired it out, so to speak. That 6-7 mpg is an all around average. Here is a good thread where someone has a much bigger frame of reference. He drove a 450 series gmc practically across country. The summary is on the 4th page, but it's all a good read.
Scott

http://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=743304&page=1
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
Top
#839262 - Tue Mar 27 2012 10:52 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Scott's50]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
Air over is not straight air. It is merely a booster similar to vacuum boosted brakes. The foot pedal may not be tied into the trailer brake circuit. Most air over systems had a completely separate braking system on the tractor and the trailer. A trolly valve on the steering column controls the air to the trailer. If it is two separate systems, extreme caution should be used when pulling a trailer on slick roads. It was common to see this model trucks with a back corner bashed in from a jack knife. With full air, apportioning valves and ABS, the work jack knife has almost been removed from our vocabulary. While pulling a trailer, especially one that caught a lot of wind, this truck would have been lucky to 4 miles to the gallon.
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#839289 - Wed Mar 28 2012 12:44 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
If there was a full air option as it was stated in 1 of the preceding posts, I'm wondering how full air or straight air would be labeled on the glove box plate. My truck is listed as AIR on the line opposite brakes, but it is only air over.
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#839296 - Wed Mar 28 2012 02:01 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sun Mar 07 2004 12:00 PM
Posts: 2174
Loc: Hughesville, MD
k9, do you have a standard brake pedal or an air brake Treadle Pedal (looks like a gas pedal)?

My 1956 Chevy LCF has Air Over with a Treadle Pedal. It has two Master Cylinders that are actuated via an air chamber (one serves the front and the other the rear axle). I also have a Trolly valve for the trailer. I've never seen another set up like mine. The set up I have seems like a dangerous system...if I loose air I'm done. If you have the type with a air booster and you loose air you can still stand on the brake pedal to stop the truck because the pedal is connected to the Master Cylinder.

Mike B smile
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#839327 - Wed Mar 28 2012 08:38 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Mike B]
spanky Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Fri Dec 20 2002 12:00 PM
Posts: 4018
Loc: burlington, n.c.
I went out looked at my glove box tag. It says "AIR" next to service brakes. My truck is full air brakes.
_________________________
Spanky Hardy......Collector Of Fine Old G.M. COE Trucks & Antique Holmes Wreckers
1950 GMC 250 1-Ton in the Gallery
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#839440 - Wed Mar 28 2012 05:02 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: spanky]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Mike B, It's just a regular brake pedal. It does have 2 air tanks that are connected. Looks like only to increase air capacity. There is a air powered booster under there too.

Spanky, That's the way the tag reads on mine too. The a in 45230a probably stands for air also.

There is a military contract number on the dash plate. Anybody know where that number can be researched? It would be very interesting to know that history. It does give the build day or the delivery day(I'd have to check that again) for the truck which is cool.
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#839479 - Wed Mar 28 2012 07:24 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
spanky Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Fri Dec 20 2002 12:00 PM
Posts: 4018
Loc: burlington, n.c.
My truck has (F453 30 1023) on the ID tag in the driver door jamb. I've never seen a letter after the initial series no. ie: 452 except once, & it was a "x" after (HF 602x 31 1245) This was a 600 series "Cannonball" COE I once owned, & the "x" in the ID number denoted it being a special order wheelbase. Your "a" has me puzzeled. I saw a air over hydraulic '54 GMC 450 series once with "Hyd./Air" on the glove box lid plate, nest to serv. brakes.
_________________________
Spanky Hardy......Collector Of Fine Old G.M. COE Trucks & Antique Holmes Wreckers
1950 GMC 250 1-Ton in the Gallery
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#839493 - Wed Mar 28 2012 08:18 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: spanky]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I looked at the drivers door jam to see if the a is on it, it is not. There is a 452 a large space then 30 another long space followed by the 4 digit serial number. The glove box tag lists the model as 452. There is no A on the glove box tag either. On the center of the dash there is a large nomenclature tag that lists the empty weight, payload max weight and the combined maximum weight, plus the contract no. date of delivery, where it was built, who it was built for USAF and the make - GMC and model - 45230A on the same line. Model 45230A is also on my paperwork needed to receive a title. On the bottom of the tag are the large letters PMS with an insignia next to it. I don't know what that is about.

The Hyd./air would be the accurate notation on the glove box, but it only says AIR
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#839768 - Thu Mar 29 2012 07:54 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
peytonmaterne Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Fri Dec 04 2009 11:05 AM
Posts: 106
Loc: SE Ohio
K9, my 450 is air over hydraulic also, and states air on the glovebox tag. The booster for this system is known as an air-pack.
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#839772 - Thu Mar 29 2012 08:04 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: peytonmaterne]
peytonmaterne Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Fri Dec 04 2009 11:05 AM
Posts: 106
Loc: SE Ohio
I'm in my diesel mindset, air-pack for diesel, hydrovac for the gassers.
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#839812 - Thu Mar 29 2012 09:52 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: peytonmaterne]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I'm wondering if the compressor is the same for air over and full air.
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#840006 - Fri Mar 30 2012 07:17 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
peytonmaterne Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Fri Dec 04 2009 11:05 AM
Posts: 106
Loc: SE Ohio
Looking in my maintenance manual, I see one compressor listed. Midland steel products, model N-4098, so should be the same compressor for both setups.
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#840070 - Fri Mar 30 2012 11:16 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: peytonmaterne]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Maybe the compressor is the determining factor then.
Is hydrovac a brand name or a descriptive name?
Vacuum isn't used is it? I certainly don't know how they work.

Tonight I pulled the plugs squirted alittle oil down each cyl and thought I'd crank it with the plugs out. There was nothing. Not a click, no sound at all from the starter. If the engine was stuck I thought I'd hear something from the starter, but don't know because I've never tried turning over a stuck motor before. Tomorrow I'll try to turn it over by hand to find out if it is stuck. The battery is good. The headlights did come on, but somewhat slowly. I'll have one of my boys push the floor starter button while I watch it to see if that is working right too. Anything I'm missing?
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#840080 - Sat Mar 31 2012 12:55 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Mike B Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sun Mar 07 2004 12:00 PM
Posts: 2174
Loc: Hughesville, MD
Hydrovac is a descriptive name, I believe Bendix made them and yes they are vacuum actuated. Many other brands used them as well like Ford and Dodge.

Turn the head lights on and see if they dim or go out when you hit the starter. If they do then the battery is weak.

Put the truck in High Gear and gently rock the truck back and forth and see if the motor turns. Make sure to have wheel chocks on both sides of the tires (about 6" away so the truck can roll, but not get away from you if the motor breaks free.

Mike B smile
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#840102 - Sat Mar 31 2012 07:45 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Mike B]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
you may want to pull the button assembly off top of starter and clean contact on top of starter and inside button assembly. don't lose the cardboard inserts inside starter button housing ,it prevents accidental arcing. might want to remove valve cover and spray around valve stems and make sure they are free. cool truck.
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#840110 - Sat Mar 31 2012 08:20 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
peytonmaterne Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Fri Dec 04 2009 11:05 AM
Posts: 106
Loc: SE Ohio
K9, the hydrovac uses vacuum, while the air pack uses air pressure, since you have an air compressor then it must have the air pack system?
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#840257 - Sat Mar 31 2012 07:20 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: peytonmaterne]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I don't know how either system works, but since this truck has a compressor, I didn't think it used a hydrovac, unless hydrovac was a brand and not a descriptive name with vacuum use. Gas engines produce vacuum to use a vacuum system diesels don't produce enough vacuum so air pressure is required, basically it's push rather than pull. Being a tractor it's intended use is to pull trailers and they need air.

I was wondering about the button assembly needing cleaning or the contacts need replacing. With the oil filter located directly above the starter something has to be moved..... unfortunately.

I was going to try to turn the engine over by hand. If it's not stuck it should move. I hope.

I haven't taken the truck off the trailer yet. I was hoping to get it running so I could move it around my driveway as needed. Having bought the truck from uncle sam, you get paperwork to obtain a title and you must bring the truck to the DMV for the VIN inspection to get a title. If I drive it there it costs for trip permits and insurance. That's why it's still on the trailer and unable to rock it as suggested. It's a pain to work on being up so high but the trailer provides a nice platform to crawl under it on.



Edited by k9trucker (Sat Mar 31 2012 10:28 PM)
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#840305 - Sat Mar 31 2012 11:17 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I had my son help me push the floor starter while I watched the headlights. !st off the headlights wouldn't work and then after trying to figure out why for 10 minutes they came on. With the headlights working they immediately go out and won't come back on if the floor starter is pushed. I'm guessing there is a ground issue, because if there was a dead short the wires would start to cook. I put a meter on the lead to the starter and I couldn't get a steady reading. The voltage was bouncing around from 2 to 3 volts. If I could get that to stop and give a steady reading the headlights would come on again until the starter was tried and then nothing would work again. The hot wire to the cab comes off that starter connection. I'm guessing that is where one of the problems is and the other is where the cab electrics ground. I think I'll check the engine grounds too. Maybe the engine is stuck and the contacts to the starter burned. I wasn't able to try to wrench the engine over. I'll try that tomorrow. Whoever was working on this truck before looks like they were holding a hot wire to the coil wire with there fingers to move the truck around. If it sounds like the wiring is a mess.... it is.

I need to get it running soon and when it gets to that point where it might start, I'll twist one of my sons arms to make a video of it.

The truck came from a dry climate and smelled bad enough from mice living in it for 10 years or more, but now since I brought it home to this wet rainy climate it is the worst smelling truck interior imaginable !!! I have smelled bad mice infested trucks before and this one is easily the worst. I can't put it into words how bad this is but I do know that the truck will rust out in short order if I don't get it cleaned soon.
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#840353 - Sun Apr 01 2012 08:20 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
don stocker Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Nov 29 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 2676
Loc: osceola, wi
You might want to take the cover off the flywheel and turn it with a large screwdriver or a pry bar. Is it possible that the starter drive is stuck engaged into the flywheel? Might want to loosen the starter mounting bolts and see.
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#840369 - Sun Apr 01 2012 11:01 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: don stocker]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
I'm guessing you had the plugs out trying to rock motor, otherwise compression could be holding things up. You may want to go ahead and take it where you need to to get title and get it off trailer easier to work on. Suggest pulling seats out and power wash interior. Let oil soak in cylinders awhile. You can disconnect all the other wiring and hot wire the truck that might eliminate some of the draw in wiring harness. Clean the connections at battery, starter and engine and chassis grounds.. If cables have been chaffed and patched you may have a corrosion issue within the battery cables themselves. If the battery is not new have it tested it may not be up to snuff, I even have had a brand new battery fail to hold a charge.
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#840381 - Sun Apr 01 2012 11:30 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I took the plugs out to put some oil in each cylinder in case they were dry and possibly sticking. I left them out to try to turn it over by hand. There is a bolt on the end of the crankshaft and the fan was already off when I got it, so I thought if I moved it even a small amount that would tell me it was free. Taking the cover off the flywheel would be a better idea because I could turn the engine more and in the right direction. I hope the rain stops today and yes I've got to get those seats out right away.

The battery shows almost 13 volts and it's the same battery I used to pull the truck up on the trailer with, it should still have enough to crank an engine with the plugs out. I won't ignore the possibly it is now weak, and I'm going to put a charger on it.

Thanks
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#840423 - Sun Apr 01 2012 01:37 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
Since someone has already been messing with it it's hard to say what is going on with it.
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#840455 - Sun Apr 01 2012 05:05 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I took off the flywheel inspection plate and with the plugs out the engine spins by pushing with just one hand on the gear. The starter gear is where it should be

The truck is full of small white bugs they were up in the clutch and on the flywheel teeth. I woke them up when I turned over the engine about 30 or 40 immediately fell out, some fell on me. They were under the mat in the cab too.

With the engine spinning so easily I'm going to turn it some more to make sure the valve train is smooth. It looks like the starter needs to come out.

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#840462 - Sun Apr 01 2012 05:50 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
Your right, that makes it all more complicated.

When a truck is given to a local volunteer fire dept by the feds they are going to use it and spend little to nothing on maintenance. Can't blame them, they don't own it Then when it quits and/or no longer meets their needs they park it. If they don't use it it goes back to the feds. If no other fire dept or agency wants it, it gets auctioned.

I'm developing an opinion of what happened the more I work on this truck. Right now I'm thinking the electrics went bad, the truck was hard to start or hard to keep running and the starter was over used and being 6 volt, with a 12 volt battery it couldn't take the punishment. Then the mice took over and it was never going to get fixed.

One thing I didn't know until I bought this truck is that these federal vehicles are given to ranchers that form their own volunteer fire dept's and they are encouraged to do so. They have the ability to be first on the scene after a lightning strike and get the fire out while it's small.

I removed the seat and while the seat looked good on the outside, no rips or tears, inside the bottom bench was one big huge stinking mouse nest. The cardboard bottom held it all in. There was no space in the springs, it was totally packed full, and that's why my son who was helping me yesterday was saying the longer I sit in here the worse the smell gets. Everytime he moved he pumped out more smell and man did it ever stink.

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#840504 - Sun Apr 01 2012 08:09 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
Glad to hear the motor turns ok. I would remove valve cover you are likely to find crud on top of head and around valve area. you want to clean that up so it doesn't block oil drain holes and spray lubricant around valve stems and push rods. Starter may be ok once you clean everything up and clean contacts.
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#840557 - Sun Apr 01 2012 10:44 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I took the starter out. The contacts looked good. It may have a dead spot. I'm going to have it tested. For some reason the fan was removed when I got the truck. I'm wondering if they were trying to turn the starter off a dead spot by turning the bolt on the end of the crank. They have this bubba installed battery cutoff switch in the cab too. Probably had a battery drain at some point but I didn't notice one when I hooked up the battery.

What lubricant do you recommend?

Thanks
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#840765 - Mon Apr 02 2012 09:11 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
Around the valve stems and push rods the penetrating oil of your choice. Kroil, marvel mystery oil, pb blaster. You want something that will lubricate and penetrate any sticky deposits. Even on modern motors people have been having problems with varnish from old gas, causing stuck valves ,bent push rods carb problems. You might do a search in the engine forum for advice on reviving engines with least amount of damage and ways of determining the polarity of you r truck as they were positive ground from the factory.
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#840880 - Tue Apr 03 2012 11:28 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
The truck had a battery in it. It had 2 positive battery terminal cable ends. I think it was changed to negative ground when an alternator was added. I don't think there ever was a positive ground alternator, but don't know enough to say for sure. I hooked up a battery negative ground.

I want to eventually remove the alternator and put in a 12 v generator. I'm going to need the mounting brackets too. The alternator that's in it isn't lined up very well and probably throws belts. The starter shouldn't care about the polarity should it? I believe it would run with either polarity.
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#841080 - Wed Apr 04 2012 07:32 AM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
Not having messed with the positive ground systems I don't have a ready answer. With some electric motors you reverse the wires they turn backwards. I don't know about starters. You would be doing yourself a favor to post a question in the electrical bay forum.
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#841246 - Wed Apr 04 2012 06:40 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
crenwelge Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Sat Jan 19 2008 01:15 AM
Posts: 4383
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
The starter doesn't care about polarity. If they converted it to negative ground, and they knew what they were doing, the negative side of the coil should go to the distributor. A positive ground would have the + side of the coil going to the distributor. However, there is a good chance that whoever converted it was clueless that coils have polarity. Permanent magnet motors care about polarity, and so does the radio and the ammeter.
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#841315 - Wed Apr 04 2012 09:50 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: crenwelge]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I checked the coil and they didn't change it. They should have changed it for a better spark. I think it would still run but maybe be harder to start and not run so good.

The starter is totally shot, even needs field coils. $310.... ouch. I had it changed to 12v since it was only $15 more.
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#841337 - Wed Apr 04 2012 10:52 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
I hope you had your original starter rewound to 12v, not just putting a 12v starter on. There is not a 12v starter gear with the correct teeth on the drive gear. Both 6&12v have the same number of teeth, but the pitch is wrong on the 12v. It engages the teeth on the flywheel too shallowly. Also, the 6v gear won't fit on a 12 v starter. The 12v starter that was on my truck was chewing up the ring gear pretty bad. The 12v starter would occasionally hang up in the engaged position. To make matters worse, a 12v ring gear won't fit the 6v flywheel either.
What I ended up doing was using a key start 6v starter from a chevy car. (COE's are push button start, rather than stomp start). My starter repair guy installed the correct drive gear for the original starter. He also installed a 12v coil, leaving only the motor itself as 6v. I should have written down the part number for the drive gear, but didn't. My starter's O.E. Part number is 1107960. The starter guy could look up the correct drive gear from there. I had to buy the starter, drive gear, coil and pay to have the guy cobble it all together and still only had $160 in it.
So, I would recommend sticking with the 6v starter. If, you find a way to make the 12 v starter work let me know. I couldn't find it. I had a thread going here and a the old gmc trucks site about this. I'll give you the link to both. You have to be a member to view the old GMC site, which I would recommend if you aren't already. Sorry about the long winded post.
Scott

http://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbt...6311#Post776311

http://oldgmctrucks.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4101021591/m/28620585763?r=63620916763#63620916763
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
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#841516 - Thu Apr 05 2012 05:18 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Scott's50]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I'm having the original starter converted. Thank you for posting. That is very good info to know. I always seem to pay twice as much.
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#842896 - Tue Apr 10 2012 03:56 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: Mike B]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I was hoping to have a good attempt at starting the truck today but Napa's books don't go back far enough. The spark plug wire set I got for a 270 is not going to work. It may be for a different distributor location. Napa doesn't have any info on a 302 inline 6. Seems odd, was this engine limited production? I'm going to see if I can scratch around for the ID pad to see if it really is a 302 or what is in it now.
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#842926 - Tue Apr 10 2012 06:37 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: k9trucker]
kb3csw Offline
Shop Shark
Registered: Wed Dec 24 2003 12:00 PM
Posts: 1306
Loc: Pocomoke City, MD
perhaps a universal set that you cut to length would work.
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#842987 - Tue Apr 10 2012 09:32 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
Scott's50 Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Thu Nov 23 2006 12:00 PM
Posts: 187
Loc: Lexington, SC
Hmmm, I haven't had to cross that bridge yet. I was able to get a fuel pump by crossing out a '57 400 series at Carquest. My local Carquest has been there for about 30 years and have some paper books in the back room that go way back. I think GMC used the 302 from '52-59. They were also in military duece and half truck during that time. 302's are also popular with the hot rod crowd, so spark plug wires are out there.
Perhaps some one who knows a part number will chime in soon.
Scott
_________________________
1947, 1950, & 1952 Chevrolet 1/2 ton
1952 GMC 450 series Cab Over Engine
1946 Chevrolet 2 Ton
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#842996 - Tue Apr 10 2012 10:08 PM Re: GMC 450 curb weight needed [Re: kb3csw]
k9trucker Offline
Wrench Fetcher
Registered: Mon Mar 12 2012 10:40 PM
Posts: 60
Loc: United States
I found a set that closely matches what was on it. I should have gone with a universal set, but thought that buying a set meant for the engine would be good enough and save some time, but after returning the 1st one, and all the running around, it didn't save any time. I would recommend cutting a universal to fit for anyone needing new wires. You can get an exact job doing your own.

The napa spark plug wires I ended up using were 700126. They matched better than the set that fit a 1955 270ci engine. 1955 was as far back as the book went.

I ran out of time before the rain storm came so I hope to get another try at starting it tomorrow.

I scraped the pad. It starts with 302 so it probably is the original engine.


Edited by k9trucker (Sun Apr 15 2012 04:27 PM)
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